[Will & Kate] (0:05 - 0:23)

Burns of New Zealand, Australia and Asia. Radically making magic on the paddock round the fire. B-O-N-Z-A-A-R. Bonzaar Podcast.

[Stevan] (0:30 - 1:00)

Alright, a bonzaar welcome to all. In this episode we'll venture to the east coast of Australia and visit Sunburnt Arts and the folks that have volunteered to keep the magic alive. We will discuss some of the topical community concerns raised at the SBA Town Hall, chat about the burning seed debrief and critical issues and go through some of the milestones and take a look at the future plans for Sunburnt Arts.

With me I am joined by TJ, Tereasa, Marcelo from Sunburnt Arts. How are you guys going?

[Tereasa] (1:00 - 1:01)

Pretty good, thanks.

[TJ] (1:02 - 1:02)

Been better.

[Stevan] (1:02 - 1:04)

You're a life preserver there.

[TJ] (1:04 - 1:07)

Yeah, it's a metaphor for because we're keeping this thing afloat.

[Stevan] (1:08 - 1:09)

Beautiful, I love it.

[TJ] (1:10 - 1:11)

You didn't ask about my shades though.

[Marcelo] (1:11 - 1:12)

Because of the sun?

[TJ] (1:12 - 1:15)

That's because our future is so bright.

[Marcelo] (1:15 - 1:17)

Oh my god, that's so cute.

[TJ] (1:17 - 1:24)

I've been practising that all day. And also my new name is King Dingaling, please. I would prefer that.

That's how you don't misgender me.

[Stevan] (1:25 - 1:43)

Alright, King Dingaling. Now let's start with my favourite part of the segment is getting people's background journeys into the culture, into the burning community. So we haven't heard from you, Tereasa, as well as Marcelo.

Would you guys like to say hello to the community and just give us a brief background?

[Tereasa] (1:43 - 3:17)

Sure, totally. Well, I guess, yeah, I'm talking so I'll go first. Yeah, well, I went to my first Burning Seed and was completely blown away.

I came away so inspired. I didn't stop drawing for two weeks and thought about so many things that I wanted to make and do. And it absolutely buoyed me in a way that, you know, I hadn't been motivated like that since the raves of the 90s, you know.

It just was so exciting. And then, you know, I had an idea to make the mystical music box and I put it out there to the community and I barely knew anybody. And it was like an idea on the back of a scrappy piece of paper.

And it was completely and utterly supported. And I really realised that you can only dream as big as the community that will support you. And from there, I really felt incredibly passionate about what the community could do and what it felt like to have that level of support.

And how important it was for me, a solo mom, creative, you know, performance artist, DJ, maker of things, to have a space where I could just unmask and be totally myself, non-censored. So I relish that and want to do everything I can to make that possible for others to also join it.

[Stevan] (3:17 - 3:19)

Your art piece, the music box.

[Tereasa] (3:19 - 3:20)

The mystical music box, yeah.

[Stevan] (3:21 - 3:25)

The mystical music box.

That was featured in a 2019 Burning Seed. Is that right?

[Tereasa] (3:25 - 3:33)

Yeah, I think so. I get the years mixed up, you know, I know what's happening on a day-to-day basis.

But, you know, history. I've only got so much RAM.

[Stevan] (3:33 - 3:38)

Yeah, that was a beautiful piece. We've got some pictures of that. Yeah, it's a magnificent piece.

[TJ] (3:38 - 3:41)

Insert pictures of art piece right now.

[Tereasa] (3:43 - 4:51)

Yeah, look, it was a place for connecting people. I really loved the idea of having a really warm, inviting, sensual space where people would come and feel that the jewels were, you know, it's based on a music box, which is often, you know, has jewelry in it. But the jewels were people and that the treasure is friendship.

And I really think that I managed to do that. But, you know, only reason that I managed to do it is because I had an audacious dream and a whole group of people that I barely knew got excited about my thought and then came together and helped me do that. And there are so few spaces as an artist where you get the chance to make risky decisions, try new things, do something out of the ordinary.

And on top of that, fully be yourself, you know, to say that you don't know what you're doing, but you're really excited and you've got a really strong idea. And that is something that I absolutely treasure.

[Stevan] (4:51 - 4:55)

And welcome, Marcelo. Would you like to share with us your story, your background?

[Marcelo] (4:56 - 6:51)

My story, a bit of magic. Decided to go to Burning Man in 2017. And then somebody in my party showed up. Oh, I'm going to Burning Man as well.

And I'm part of their Amazon camp. Do you want to join? I'm like, yeah, sounds good.

So I managed to do Brazilian burners, actually. And yeah, I didn't know much about the burning community. And I got there in a parachute, pretty much.

And the first day we went up, we had this art called the Altar of Intentions. And we went to the playa and somebody gave me a drop of something, I don't know what. And I started discovering the playa and seeing that everyone's working, everyone's doing something.

And it's like, wow, that's how it works. Everyone's just together making this happen. And yeah, I was blown away.

So I moved to Australia and straight away joined the Burning Seed. But it was in 2020, after 2019. And there was a bit of a lot of drama happening.

But anyway, for some reason, there was a flame, a rekindle that wanted to happen. And it did happen. But it was very tough.

As everyone that's been before this knows, it had its challenges, but it did happen. And after that, this restructuring managed to happen. And I was a bit a part of that with some events.

And after that, there was a metamorphosis that didn't happen. But the flame kept alive. And some left.

And the new structure now happened with the Sunburn Arts, without Sunburn Events. And since 2020, I just kind of believe in the community here and Burning Seed. And yeah, that's why I'm here.

[Stevan] (6:51 - 6:57)

Yeah, cool. And how did you guys get involved? TJ, how did you get involved with the Sunburn Arts?

[TJ] (6:58 - 7:54)

Yeah, King Dingaling will be fine, or Your Majesty, et cetera. How did I get involved? Well, it was kind of weird.

It was the same as tripping Jaguar. Basically, I was passed out on Chapel Street on the gutter. I had half a kebab in my hand.

And someone poured something into my mouth. I think it was heroin. It was the 90s.

That was all the rage at the time. Anyway, I'd heard this story about this thing in the desert called Burning Man. And I was like, wow, that sounds interesting.

And then when I got there, they didn't actually burn any man. They built this wooden effigy and burnt that. I was really disappointed.

So obviously, I put in my expense report and got fully reimbursed, came back, wrote a 15,000-word blog post, which had some pretty good traction for a couple of weeks, and then obviously just got lost in the ether. Yeah, that's kind of my origin story, which I think is, you know, it's a journey. There's lots of twists and turns, ups and downs.

And I think we're all richer through the experience. So you're welcome.

[Stevan] (7:54 - 7:58)

And how did you find the burning seed community? You've been to a few yourself.

[TJ] (7:59 - 9:28)

Yeah. In all seriousness, it's the same. You've heard my origin story so many times.

Same as everybody. Went, saw Burning Man online. I think it was like 2012.

But, ah, screw it. So I went in the lottery because I had the ticket lottery. Got tickets.

Went, oh, shit, okay, now I need to actually go. And, yeah, rented a van and bought a tent from Walmart or whatever the fuck it is. Excuse my French.

But it was a kid's tent for just, like, camping inside the house. It was a Buzz Lightyear tent. And it was way too small and, like, not appropriate.

So my feet were hanging out the whole time. And, yeah, went there and went, oh, okay, I get it. This is what it's all about.

Like, the art, the craziness. It's like a side quest. Burning Man is just like a constant side quest mission.

And I went, you know what? I can do anything I put my mind to. I was going through this real transitional period at the time.

You know, messy divorce and all that kind of jazz, which is also in my blog post, which I'll link to you guys in the description. Yeah, and then came back to Australia. And, you know, we had the internet.

It was all pretty raw and new. So we were like, oh, I found this Burning Man community, Burning Seed, and went. I think my first year was 2013.

And did the usual thing, you know, started a sound cab with techno and Deep House and all that kind of stuff. And had lots of beautiful people around dancing, mostly naked. And there was lots of, like, tranquilizers for animals, et cetera.

And, you know, we really contributed. I think we really brought a massive crowd. I think, you know, the success was largely based on the crowd that we brought because we're so important.

And our music is so groundbreaking, you know, being four-on-the-floor Deep House, which you can find literally everywhere.

[Stevan] (9:28 - 9:53)

For the listeners out there that are not familiar with Burning Seed, now this is the – it was Australia's largest burn. It is the East Coast's largest burn. It's got a long and rich history as well.

But what we're here to talk about is Sunburn Arts. That's the new entity that has been transitioned from Burning Seed. Let's get into why did you guys join the board of Sunburn Arts in keeping this flame alive.

[Marcelo] (9:54 - 10:41)

Okay. I'll go first. Actually, it's said that Burning Seed is the first burn in Australia.

That's what we keep saying. But, yeah. I mean, I said a little bit that since 2020 I'm kind of helping, and it just felt like, yeah, I've been doing it.

Okay, I'll keep doing it. And kind of didn't do it after the restructure. But because of metamorphosis, I was a bit rushed and had some issues and some people left.

And then there was a chance to do it again with the voting. And I'm like, yeah, I think I'll give it another go. And, yeah, managed to get back on the wagon.

And it's a good group now, and it just feels like the energy in the community is there. So we just need the infrastructure to make it happen again.

[Tereasa] (10:41 - 12:09)

Yeah. I joined because I'm really passionate about resilient communities and the impact that that can make for people's lives. So, you know, I talked to you just a minute ago about what it means to me personally, but I think very much, you know, being part of the IBAG survey and then understanding the level of, you know, potential for neurodivergence within our community and diversity, you know, within our population, which just seems completely evident everywhere I look.

And then thinking about that on the bigger scale of what's happening in our global community and how important it is for us to have the power of real friendship that feels tested. And there's nothing better, as we know, than, you know, taking your friend out to go camping to test out a friendship. So, you know, we really have great tested friendships, but not just that.

It's like striving together. It's about, you know, iterating. It's about generating really fantastic ideas.

And for me as a person in a position where I get a chance to think about these sort of matters from a strong community perspective, I'm a psychotherapist and sexologist and a long-term kinkster and being part of all of these different worlds. And to bring all of that together, it feels like really satisfying soul work to me. It's really purposeful.

[TJ] (12:09 - 13:36)

Yeah, same. Like basically I echo my two compadres' sentiments. I've been involved with Burning Seed for quite a while back in the day but then left for, I wouldn't say ethical reasons.

I just, yeah, I didn't want to be a part of Red Earth City Proprietary Limited, so I left. And once that was all over and done, I came back and super excited to get into it. Obviously, we've got a lot of challenges now, but I think that's part of it for me is I really like those challenges.

And as Tripping Jaguar and Titi here say, there's a wonderful community there where like what you see on the surface and what you present, that's it. Before, if we stay off the internet, you don't really know too much about these people. So you've got this opportunity to stay in character, to test out things, ways that you deal with struggles or interpersonal relationships, et cetera.

And it's a wonderful blank canvas for you to test these things and expand and grow as a human. And then also just do rad shit with a significant element of danger. And then, of course, there's obviously the tax benefits of being a board member on a charity.

You know, the biscuits when we have our morning teas, the biscuits, the quality's gone down. Look, we haven't got much money at the moment, so I just want everyone to know out there that the biscuits were not exploding on Tim Tams or fucking Ice Bobos anymore. It's all just seriously dry ginger biscuits, scotch finger biscuits, basically all the finger biscuit styles.

Very dry, not very toasty.

[Stevan] (13:37 - 13:39)

All the fresh stuff, right? Not expired?

[TJ] (13:40 - 13:49)

Well, yeah. See, if you put a piece of orange peel inside the packet and leave it overnight, the next day it's really quite moist and refreshing. So, yeah, that's why I joined, the tax benefits.

[Stevan] (13:49 - 13:57)

Was it also encouraging just to see the new entity becoming its own kind of... Beast?

[TJ] (13:57 - 13:58)

Animal?

[Stevan] (13:58 - 14:20)

Yeah, its own, I mean, it's back to community, right? The whole structure. So it's encouraging to see everyone else coming on board and actually wanting to help rather than previously people didn't want to do anything with it or they wanted to form their own actual entity away from it.

So now it's become more community focused? 100%. I want to say back to the community.

[Marcelo] (14:20 - 14:40)

It's the first time to the community because before it was owned by Railroad City and yes, now we have votes and we have the town hall, like you were there and you saw it happening and the votes for the board, which is going to happen, keep happening. So, yeah, definitely a new aspect.

[Tereasa] (14:40 - 16:22)

Yeah, that's right. And I was absolutely flabbergasted, to be honest, to discover that Burning Seed was owned by three dudes. And honestly, when I discovered that, I quit, basically.

I'm not doing that level of epic effort, months of toil, without that coming back to a whole community. But then I was studying and I couldn't get involved after that first period of time when they were trying to – the failed event. I just tried to get involved the way I could.

And so the minute that it became apparent that I could get involved, then I did. And it's been already really exciting to be able to give as much voice and capacity to the community. So it's really important for me at all times, like if we're making anything of a major decision, that it's not us top-down thinking, oh, yeah, we think this is a good idea, but rather doing it in a very collaborative way, research-based, trying to find out from as many broad voices as possible what the consensus is so that it's bottom-up, something that is going to represent the voice of our membership base.

Join up, by the way, so that we can hear you. Yeah, so not only change of leadership, but I am hoping that it really represents that vital element of it being a membership organisation.

[Stevan] (16:23 - 16:49)

The analogy we talked about earlier, Captain Dingling, was you guys are like the union reps of the community. You guys are representing us. So it's great to see that this is heading to a different direction and it's not retreading the same old issues or the same old kind of nostalgic things that we loved before.

So that's why I was so keen to talk to you guys, and thanks for coming along. So let's talk about that, TJ, Captain Dingling.

[TJ] (16:50 - 18:17)

Captain, it's King, but that's a great question, Steve. Thanks for asking. It is fascinating.

Like TT was saying, an entity like this is a community entity, and enormous amounts of funds and people's time, energy, effort, love, sweat, tears, etc. But we don't think as a community that it should be that pyramidic structure with the people on top. You are right.

We are those union reps, and seeing how this team has organised the surveys, the voting, and the comms plans, etc., has just been so refreshing and awesome because we know these systems work, and if we all get behind them, there's 50 different ways to skin a cat. We just got to pick one and go for it, and luckily we have these people who are so experienced and professional at it. It's really, really simple, and the results are quite clear.

So it's very simple and easy for us to make those decisions. And yes, we are a board. We are elected, so there are some decisions that we have to obviously have some veto on as far as fiscal responsibility or meeting government regulations, etc.

But the bribes have been working so far. They're a little expensive, but inflation being what it is, we think we've built some good relationships there. But just getting more onto that, it is a membership-based thing, so all you snapperheads online who are getting on Facebook and talking a big game, let's see your membership.

Get on there. Sign up. Become a member.

That's where we want you. That's where your voice counts. It doesn't count in the filth of MySpace.

[Tereasa] (18:17 - 18:18)

Show us your membership.

[TJ] (18:18 - 18:21)

Show us your membership cards, all financial.

[Tereasa] (18:21 - 18:22)

I want to see your members.

[Stevan] (18:22 - 18:25)

So who else is on the current board of Sunburnt Arts?

[TJ] (18:26 - 18:41)

Some random people that we found. They're basically a diversity hire. I think we've got some tech wizards.

Just unimportant people. Look, what's important is us here who have turned up, who are just facing the cold, facing, you know, front-facing, forward-moving.

[Marcelo] (18:42 - 18:56)

We have Gabe, Doofdaddy.

We have Leanna Pugliese or Momma. We have Nathan or Nugby. And we have Bjorn.

And, yeah.

[Stevan] (18:56 - 19:06)

That's a very strong seven-board member. And you guys are all experienced, which it's good for the community to, you know, to have you guys on board.

[TJ] (19:06 - 19:26)

Seven's a good number too because if you have a hung vote, so like three people voting, then that extra person can get those votes over the line. It's a very wonderful system. And it also allows us to really build, you know, power dynamics and like teams where we set up forts in our lounge rooms and yell at the other people on the other side of our barriers.

[Stevan] (19:27 - 19:30)

Is Burning Seed still a Burning Man regional?

[Marcelo] (19:30 - 19:31)

Yes, definitely.

[Stevan] (19:32 - 19:32)

Yeah.

[TJ] (19:32 - 19:32)

Allegedly.

[Marcelo] (19:33 - 19:35)

No, it was the last event and it's going to be in the next event.

[Stevan] (19:36 - 19:37)

Yes, great, great.

[TJ] (19:37 - 19:37)

Yeah.

[Marcelo] (19:37 - 19:59)

Now we have the board, so we're looking for the team leads and 2ICs and for our mate camp out. So, yeah, just check our Facebook or Sunburnt Art's website and just get amongst it because we're going to be there in May, seeing the site for the first time and visiting and getting, yeah, getting acquaintance.

[TJ] (20:00 - 20:00)

Should we talk about that?

[Stevan] (20:01 - 20:02)

Yeah, this is all exciting.

[TJ] (20:02 - 20:06)

No, we shouldn't talk about that actually. Delete that. Cut that.

[Tereasa] (20:06 - 20:16)

Cut that. Yeah. We can talk about next year.

We can talk about next year.

[Marcelo] (20:17 - 20:19)

Yeah, which is going to be the event. Now it's just a working video style.

[Stevan] (20:20 - 21:01)

Yeah. So, yeah, we'll mention all those later on because what I want to get to is I thought was the pivotal moment in Burning Seed was the town hall meeting on Sunday the 27th of July in 2025. That meeting was attended by at least 30 people, probably 50 people, some more online people as well, and people coming from different regions, different localities, from Canberra, from all over Sydney it surrounds.

And there was a few good discussion points raised as well. So let's talk more about that after the break. Take a quick break and we'll be right back to talk more about those.

[TJ] (21:02 - 21:13)

Yes, and welcome back to the Bonzer podcast. Bonzaar stands for Burner of New Zealand and Asian Regions, and it's a project, podcast, initiative.

[Stevan] (21:14 - 21:27)

Yes. Let's get right into the Burning Seed SBA town hall that was on, that we all met together on Sunday the 27th of July, 2025. As I said, it was a similar moment.

[TJ] (21:27 - 21:28)

Wow, seems so long ago.

[Stevan] (21:29 - 21:59)

Yeah, but a lot has happened. So let's get into some of the topics discussed at that. So some of the core issues and the critical timelines.

First of all, the structural governance failure between SBA and SBE, some of the unclear communications collaborations, that was some of the things that was highlighted. So one of the problems, I guess, that didn't go ahead in 2025 was because of this core issue there. And the choices between event dates as well.

What have you guys learned?

[Tereasa] (21:59 - 24:00)

Oh, so much. And, you know, I was definitely trying to support people in leadership at that time, which is how I kind of realised, oh, that's what happens on the board here. And I was just not able to do more than I could at that time.

But basically recognising that, one, the structure of SBA and SBE needed to be in place because of the amount of assets that we had at that period. It spread out our risk. It meant that the events risk didn't impact the core business of Sunburnt Arts.

It made sense. Where we are today, it's not that same story of, you know, as King Dingling said, like, we're not rolling in ice vovo. It's terrible hard biscuits and dry mouths.

But, you know, that's OK. We know how to make things get good. And we learned that because we figured out that, oh, when you make a decision that is really good, sitting in the seat of a leadership position, but it's not necessarily one that was highly collaborative, then that decision may not be something that represents everyone's opinions.

And I think that we saw that, that there was not as much support for that midwinter event as what the teams would have liked. And the ticket sales just weren't there. That's people voted with their lack of purchasing.

And look, things could have changed. I'm sure when you talk to people who were there, like, you know, things could have changed with enough time and enough support and enough marketing and all that stuff. But that time ran out.

And we've been able to learn from that and change some of the things that weren't working. And we can go back to that structure, when we are rolling in the chocolate Tim Tams, double dip with some hot caramel.

[TJ] (24:00 - 26:05)

Yeah, 100%. If I can jump on that as well, Tereasa nailed it perfectly. The structure that we had with Red Earth City and then the town council, Burning Seed, the event, that was obviously, as T said, to separate the two entities.

And, you know, we're after like 3,500, 4,000, 4,500, 5,000 people events. So we had humongous teams. It was a massive machine.

And it worked for that. You know, that separation was really good. Now, as T was saying, the landscape has changed so much, and the core sort of interest or effort or input is significantly less.

But merging those two boards was a wonderful idea. Initially, I was a little bit sort of, how's it going? But then what I saw jumping in in the last year or so was that the disconnect between Sunburnt Arts and Sunburnt Events, that maybe the communication wasn't so good there, or there wasn't that formal structure or whatever.

I wasn't there. But reading the Afterburns reports and stuff, it just seemed to be a common theme. It was like nobody knew who was in charge.

It was difficult for decisions to be made. You know, a lot of people were spread too thin, doing too many things, burnt out, et cetera. So that's been like one of my core sort of, I don't know if it's the word vision or whatever, but core things is to really get that structure back.

I've had some pushback. Some people have said, oh, you guys have got a control problem. You're too controlling.

And I was like, no, no, no, we have a structure problem. If you don't have a clear structure with this business, which it is a business or a charity or whatever, then yeah, delivering on those things, those core things that we need to do, you know, your infrastructure, your planning, et cetera, your DAs, you're never going to achieve those goals. So having that core structure, understanding who's in charge of what, what your deadlines are, what your limitations are, and more importantly, who you can reach out to if you're struggling.

I noticed that was a big one as well. It's really concerning when you hear like, oh, nobody knows who's in charge. So that also tells me that like, nobody knows who to go to for help when there's, you know, critical decisions to be made.

So it's what's happening now I think is just really wonderful. I'm super proud to be part of it. It's not without its challenges.

It's quite difficult, but yeah, I think we're on track. And that's why I'm wearing the sunnies, you know, because the future is so bright.

[Marcelo] (26:05 - 26:32)

What I think for Metamorphosis, there was a bit rushed.

And yes, the SBA talking to themselves kind of didn't work out. And the ticket sales, they came too late. And there was a four, six-week period to sell X.

And there was a lot of people that wanted to buy, but they just didn't buy on time. And then there was a money issue. And yeah, it was very unfortunate to not go ahead.

Yeah.

[Stevan] (26:32 - 27:06)

At the debrief, I loved how you guys were very honest, reflective, and also critical in terms of how things went about so we can learn and move forward rather than just going around in circles and blaming each other and not taking accountability and not learning. So you're talking about the ticketing. The main issues or root cause there was overestimation as well as underestimation because, you know, we're all doing this in real time, learning it, going along as well.

There is no sort of like manuals or anything that we can pitch from.

[TJ] (27:07 - 27:10)

There actually is. There's a Google Drive full of manuals.

[Stevan] (27:10 - 27:56)

But in terms of the economy, in terms of the market, in terms of the burns, in terms of, you know, how people are spending, you know, different groups. So, yeah, this is all changing. And times are changing, too.

The world is changing, right? So I love how you guys are really honest about that and pointing out all these things. So one of the things I looked at was volunteer trauma, so collective fatigue and exhaustion.

And from that is like the workload, miscalculations. So this is the overestimation, underestimation, undefined roles, decision-making, all of those, all those little bits. It's not just one thing or one person or this or that.

Yeah, it's really fascinating. So I want to understand all these contributing factors, the misalignment, stuff like that. So, yeah, what are your thoughts?

[TJ] (27:56 - 27:57)

Oh, I have thoughts.

[Stevan] (27:57 - 27:58)

What can we learn from other burns?

[TJ] (28:00 - 30:06)

Okay, I'll start. And look, I'm just going to be really honest. I'm sorry if I come across cunty or bully-ish, but here's a prime example.

The organisation had 150 email accounts, right, each at, let's say, $6 apiece, 150 email accounts for that organization. That's, like, honestly, I'm not a super organizational person in my day-to-day work, but we can all agree that 150 is just incredible for, you know, potentially a 700-person event because that's how many tickets we sold. So trying to clean that up, that's obviously a massive thing.

Get that org structure back in place. I understand that I've been talking to some people from back in the day in Burning Seed, and they really found the board and town council to be really, like, staunch, cliquey, standover-y, you know, gang-like, mafiosos. And I didn't really feel that way because I was sort of involved, but I can understand how people would see that from the outside, especially those who really wanted to be a part of it.

But what they did, which I thought was wonderful, was this mentoring program. So if you want to be the lead for it, no problem. You stick to the hip of the current lead for a year, then they stick to your hip for a year, and then off you go.

And I found that to be really responsible and really awesome. Obviously, someone who wants to be in and take charge and do things, that might not be so wonderful. But, yeah, so there's one example that I can think of.

Getting that org structure back so that it's very clear. It's not – what we're doing is not difficult. We've all, according to everybody, we've all been doing this for a long time.

We're all experienced Burners. We understand we need DAs. We understand we need local stakeholder relationships.

We understand we need clear budgets. We understand the sequence of events as far as build, the gig, the pack down, the leave no trace, et cetera. And I think what happens as well is when a lot of people – when no one's clearly in charge, a lot of people can yell and have all these wonderful ideas, but they never agree on anything.

And we'll circle back to that next week, and then before you know it, three months are gone, and you're over budget, and everyone's getting burnt out. So that's my main takeaway from this whole last couple of years.

[Stevan] (30:06 - 30:21)

Yeah, it's a good point that you raised there, TJ. You know, the community has – King Dingling, please. Yes, sorry, King Dingling.

The community has fallen, I guess, to the wayside in terms of coming together and, you know, the cohesion is not there.

[TJ] (30:21 - 32:05)

Yeah, for sure. But here's another one. The dates, for example, like the date switch going to winter, from what I understand, the previous boards and the entities, they didn't really communicate that well amongst each other or the community or whatever, and that obviously makes things really difficult.

But then now for us going forward, we've got to try and select dates. So Underland now has the primo date that Seed used to have or that sort of general area. Did they consider burning Seed when they picked that date?

I don't think they did. I've heard different stories that they went, oh, fuck yous, we're going to take it, and you can bash it up your ass. And then I've heard other people say, oh, no, it was just the best one because it obviously is, you know, the best one for fives, et cetera.

So it's been really wonderful to talk to these people, all my friends and the homies and distant homies face-to-face and hear it that's off a chat thread, you know, like it's face-to-face, it's in real life because you get so much context and passion. The community was massively divided and we're slowly coming back, but the only way that we're coming back is because of these conversations, because people are getting in the same room and going, oh, that's right, I remember being flogged with you on the dance floor at 3 a.m. and we had a mind-meld moment and I've stuck you away in my head as like being a homie from now on, but I haven't seen you in 10 years and the shit you've been talking online has really made me upset, so now I hate you.

And this is something that we all sort of need to acknowledge and sort of move forward. I was super naive. I thought that once the restructuring would happen, that everyone would come flooding back from, you know, from the nether regions back to Seed and keep going.

But people are like super traumatized. They're like, you know what, at first I was hurt, but now I'm angry, so fuck you, I'm doing my own thing. So we need to like acknowledge that and, you know, sort of come together in some kind of like thing.

Yeah, I lost my train of thought. I was actually looking at myself in the video and I'm rather handsome.

[Stevan] (32:06 - 32:21)

Well, the whole mistrusting is why I guess part of this episode I wanted to do was to gain the trust back, to talk to you guys and to lay out the vision that you guys have and the plans so we can all help you. We can all follow and come together again. Yeah.

[Tereasa] (32:22 - 34:19)

Yeah, I don't think – yeah, I do. Thank you. I think we know that trust doesn't get earned back just because we stand somewhere and say, hey, trust me, right, and I wish that that was that easy.

But I knew coming off of the incredible pain and suffering that people experienced with the restructure that there was a lot of damage to really beautiful people who had given their heart and soul. And so from where I sat, I felt like, wow, that gives me a sense of compassion and a really strong hope of listening to people and of providing avenues to hear what people want and also to understand what happened in that past time but in a way that allows people to actually have that emotional experience witnessed because this community does actually bring about a type of passion in you that gives you a meaning, a real purpose and a home. We talk about that kind of flippantly but it actually genuinely does provide that somewhere where you can feel free to be your own creative self.

And so when that falls apart or it's for me, oh, wow, they took the curtain off and it was owned by three people and they were like puppeteering and that type of thing, that was shocking. And then to discover the behavior that occurred through the transition, the very long, hard-won restructure, hearing how many beautiful people were kind of burnt in that experience, that lit a fire in me.

[TJ] (34:19 - 34:21)

And the bank account as well, all of that. Sorry to interrupt.

[Tereasa] (34:22 - 35:20)

Oh, no, it's totally that too. There's a lot of real-world structural Machiavellian aspects. And look, I don't want to spend the whole heap of time going, okay, look, some really terrible things happened but let's absolutely be real about that.

There was an emotional, a community level and financial trust. You name it, this was a really hard era for Burning Seed. And for us to come to this place and just begin by listening, just begin by understanding as much as we can and to try and build the avenues and the capacity for people to have two-way conversation, that's how we hope through time that it will be known that leaders are people who put a net underneath the community and help it to thrive.

[TJ] (35:20 - 36:01)

Can I add on to that too? Like that goes back to what we're saying about this membership thing is like it's a wonderful thing to have this membership driven. So now there is like a focal point and like a conduit and a system for us and the community to get in and have their say and get it off the chat forums, get it into the org, say, right, I'm part of this.

I'm part of something. You know, I want my voice heard. This is how we go about it.

And that's, for me, that gives me like the massive like admin boner because we're following due process. We're doing things as best we can in that proper framework. And I just think that's really, really responsible.

We're all wild and crazy and all that stuff. But, again, lost my train of thought looking at myself. Damn it.

[Tereasa] (36:02 - 36:02)

So cute.

[Stevan] (36:03 - 36:38)

Some of the topics that was raised and discussed at the town hall was varied. I'll just go through some of this list here and just let me know what you guys think.

Now, what was talked about was the NeuroSpice communities that we have. That is a benefit I thought I think is a great benefit for our community that we do have these kind of people that's really engaged and really smart. The other thing was the name change from Burning Seed to another name.

So that was quite heavily discussed. The bank balance, the cash flow was also talked about, was also revealed. And the New South Wales burn question mark.

Where is this going?

[TJ] (36:38 - 37:37)

Yeah, I'll just jump in there real quick. So the first question, the first thing we talked about, what was that again? Lordy, how good's it being NeuroSpicy?

NeuroSpice, that's the one. Yeah, of course, man. We're all rock and rollers and NeuroSpicy and all different and wonderful weird shapes and sizes, and that's what makes us beautiful and unique in our community.

This is our safe space, man. This is our place for us to have fun and get after it and do those things and learn about ourselves and our friends. The second one, the bank balance, obviously, yeah, that's a massive one.

When you have a huge bank balance, you spend a lot. You think, oh, great, we've got this massive safety net of this awesome money, and money will solve our problems. Have a problem.

We used to throw bodies at a problem. Oh, there's a problem? Right, here's 10 people.

Fix it. Now, for a period there, it was like, oh, we've got all this money. Ha, ha, ha, have money, money, money.

And going through the receipts over the last few years, like, ha, ha, ha, I won't go into it. And then what was the last one? What was that last one, Steve?

[Stevan] (37:38 - 37:39)

It was the interstate inclusion.

[TJ] (37:40 - 39:21)

Yeah, and the name. So obviously, as we've talked about before, Matong, it's become difficult.

Matong was chosen because it was sort of halfway between Sydney and Melbourne. So now that Melbourne has moved out and are doing their own thing, and really, like, coming of age, you know, getting a job, getting a tax file number, et cetera, they don't need us anymore. You know, like, the kids, when they leave, they just grow up so fast.

Anyways, yeah, so what do we need to be in Matong? This was also, you know, let's not make any bones about it. We've got a lot of rebuilding to do in that community.

We've got to go back and talk to all the key stakeholders, all the locals. We've got a mea culpa. We've got to go there with our hat in our hands and some cold beers in the Esky.

We've got to do a bit of site prep, et cetera. And I've spoken to some friends, and they're like, we'll never go back to Matong. It's obviously you've made your decision.

That's it, you're done. And like, no, no, no, no. We will definitely get back to Matong at some stage.

But right here and now, I think we just need to not look so far in the future. We really need to look at what's happening right here and now, get our shit squared away, and then we can start making plans once we've got this all back up and running. And the name change, as everybody knows, Burning Seed was never meant to be the name for ever and ever.

It has been discussed in the last sort of year of changing it, and I'm all for it. If that's what the community wants, if we do the voting and put it to the community and they vote up if they want it, then that's what they get. We're here to do that.

I don't want it to happen this year because, fuck me, they have just like so much admin work of changing everything from Burning Seed to whatever the new name is. And obviously the time that's going to take to do that, as we saw with the community consultation process, it takes time. But that time is very important so that you get the accurate information and then you can make those informed decisions.

[Stevan] (39:21 - 39:26)

Yeah, the name change is a bit more intricate and complex as people might think.

[TJ] (39:27 - 39:40)

Not really. Do you remember Zoophemism? It's quite simple.

What we do is we rig the voting system. So we get someone to write a script on a browser that just hammers the votes and then bada-boom, bada-bing, we get the results that we want and everything's fine.

[Tereasa] (39:41 - 40:29)

Look, we've had some beautiful thoughts, like absolutely beautiful thoughts about what we could do with the name, right? Because if we go right back to the origin story, that there's this beautiful name but it is literally a seed. It is a seed.

It wasn't meant to become such a flourishing community plant without it becoming named something else. But it's so significant for people because it is a home and it's more than a home. It's where you belong within yourself.

So it's that thought of like, oh, well, can we ritualistically burn that name? When we choose that, it's surely art. It's a dance.

It's a song. It's sculpture. 100%.

[TJ] (40:29 - 40:31)

I look forward to that so much.

[Tereasa] (40:31 - 40:31)

Yeah.

[TJ] (40:32 - 40:40)

As that idea evolved to let it go and do that ceremonial thing, in my mind, my wonderful creative mind just started like exploding.

[Tereasa] (40:41 - 40:57)

Yeah. I think that when the time comes for that, but first, can we have a win? Do we deserve a win?

I feel like we deserve a win. I think we could all just absolutely agree it doesn't matter where you are or whether you're a teenager that's moved out, beautiful, gorgeous, long-legged thing.

[TJ] (40:57 - 40:57)

Yeah, we still love you.

[Tereasa] (40:57 - 41:04)

We love you. We do love you so much. And, yeah, we want you to come visit.

[TJ] (41:05 - 41:37)

Yeah, we're coming to visit to you. That's the thing. Like, Underland is so rad.

Like, it's on my schedule now, so I'm glad that we don't have to compete for that date. That's awesome because, you know, you don't want to compete with your best friends unless you're, like, in a surf or something. I don't know.

But, yeah, as far as, like, becoming the New South Wales burn or whatever, I just really don't want to put any lame, like, pigeonhole labels on it. It's a burn. It's burning seed, and this is its current form, whether that's in New South Wales or closer to Sydney or closer to Canberra or Victoria or whatever, you know.

[Tereasa] (41:37 - 41:45)

Yeah, it's not like we're going, hey, only New South Wales people can come, like, you know, because those hot teenagers.

[TJ] (41:45 - 41:47)

We should because those Victorians are wankers.

[Tereasa] (41:48 - 41:49)

Oh, come on, they're cute.

[TJ] (41:50 - 41:51)

Nah, they're wonderful. They're awesome.

[Tereasa] (41:52 - 42:29)

Yeah, but it's not like that we're trying to exclude anyone. It's just that, look, we need to focus on who is going to turn up for us right now. And we need to focus on who is going to volunteer for a situation right now.

And we've got to be realistic about that because Underland does exist. Underland exists with an exclamation mark and two or three lines and it's highlighted, you know. It's glorious.

And yay for them and yay for all of that. But if we were to pretend like we were the same org that we were those years ago, it would be so scandalous for us to do that.

[TJ] (42:29 - 42:32)

Yeah, it would be a massive disservice to it.

[Tereasa] (42:32 - 42:57)

Yeah. We need to acknowledge what is today. It's so mindful, right?

We're just being Zen here. We acknowledge what is before us right now, right here, and we respond to that. And this is not us having a strategy about that and us making a decision.

This is us looking at what is right here and responsive and responsibly steering things with that in mind.

[TJ] (42:57 - 43:07)

That's why I'm wearing this awesome life vest because we're staying afloat. There's a theory called fight, move, float. At the moment, we are not fighting.

We're not moving. We're floating as an org.

[Stevan] (43:07 - 43:21)

I do like the idea of a legacy burn, going back to Matong. Oh, man, I'd love to go back to Matong. Yeah, that place is like my home.

There was discussion. There was some questions raised about accessibility at Matong as well.

[TJ] (43:22 - 43:23)

Like wheelchair accessibility?

[Stevan] (43:24 - 43:34)

Well, just the site itself as well. Yeah, so I think the current situation with Matong can be probably we can look at other sites now. We can look at other locations.

[TJ] (43:35 - 44:32)

That's a great question, Steve. Listen, I haven't been back to Matong since 2018-19, so I need to get back there and talk to the homies who live there and see what's up, not just because they're my friends and I haven't been there in ages. Bit of a fair weather friend there.

I only went there when there was a party on when Steve was on, which is shit, and I apologize. But also as my role as the FART lead or on the board, we need to go back and listen. We need to go back and get that key data.

We need to get on site and have a look and make those decisions. It's a great site. It's flat.

It's wonderful. It's nice and hot. It's got its own challenges, of course, but it's just not viable for us at the moment, which is it sucks.

But like Tereasa said, it's not because we just don't want to be there. We're just like we literally cannot afford it. We cannot go through that logistics.

We cannot do all that. And we had such a massive response from the New South Wales and Sydney crew during the last, you know, whatever months. So we have to go where the membership points us, and that's where it is.

[Stevan] (44:32 - 44:55)

Yeah. The other thing I want to point out with that briefing was that you guys are looking at action over perfection. So you're not looking at all these ideals, location, dates, you know, your teams and all that.

So we are taking careful considerations in terms of timing, in terms of how we do things. And just because there's a lack of a burn doesn't mean there's nothing happening in the background, right?

[TJ] (44:56 - 45:36)

Yeah. Damn straight, man. Like I did sort of notice that.

Maybe we can talk about that tonight in our board meeting. We've been doing so much work in the background, and maybe we haven't been communicating that properly with our teams via the channels, et cetera. Maybe that's something we can – and I only see that because people ask questions in the Slack thread.

You're like, okay, well, there's some gaps in some information there. But, yeah, we do want that action. We need it.

Like we're running low on funds. If we don't get something going, like what are we doing here, you know? Are we just going around in circles and not doing anything and at the risk of our relationships together and our fun and our joy and our awesome sense of like doing rad shit?

Like it's all on the line here. I think we can do it.

[Stevan] (45:36 - 45:48)

Well, you guys have done a lot of work and I've noticed as well. Let's take another quick break. We'll come back and we'll talk about all the milestones, all the stuff you guys have been doing in the background and all the communications and consultations you've been doing with the community.

[TJ] (45:48 - 45:50)

Really great stuff. Great stuff.

[Stevan] (45:50 - 45:55)

All right. So all the great work you guys have done since coming on board.

[TJ] (45:55 - 45:56)

Thanks, Stevan. You're welcome, buddy.

[Stevan] (45:57 - 46:01)

At the AGM on the 31st of August, 2025.

[TJ] (46:01 - 46:02)

You're really good for date.

[Stevan] (46:02 - 46:04)

Yeah, it's part of history.

[TJ] (46:04 - 46:06)

That's that Neuro Spice coming out.

[Stevan] (46:07 - 46:07)

Yeah.

[TJ] (46:07 - 46:10)

Can you count the cards as well? Let's go to the casino.

[Stevan] (46:12 - 46:36)

Let's talk about the rebuild and the regrowth, how you guys have engaged in like an eight-week program across the eastern seaboard. You guys have gone to Canberra, to Melbourne, Wollongong and spoken to other burners in the community. Let's talk about some of the key findings that you guys discovered.

[Tereasa] (46:37 - 48:40)

Yeah. Okay. Well, you know, I guess I think the important thing is to sort of say, well, why did we do that?

You know, because generating a listening experience like that enabled us to really hear the diversity of perspectives that was in our community. Because we all know that we have diverse opinions. But where are the voices if we're just putting a survey online, right?

We actually need to have conversations because some of these topics are nuanced. And because we wanted to make a change, then we recognize that that is going to be something that requires people to hear it as much as possible, as close as possible to face to face. So, you know, that is why we chose to make as many avenues as possible available so that people could ask questions themselves and hear it firsthand about why we needed to deal with the facts as they were standing, as we sat there.

You know, because, you know, TJ and I, we joined the board and we're like, yeah, this is great. And then very quickly looking at what we have in our basket is like, holy hell, we can't just continue business as usual. This is going to be absolute failure.

And the problems that we were facing were like, well, we can't just do it the same way. And then the thought of, well, we have to go and ask. We've got to ask people.

And so, you know, what did we hear? Well, gosh, we heard that people love Matong. We heard that they love their communities.

They love, they want to come and do stuff. They want to play and, you know, get involved and hurry up. Why can't you do that now?

And can we do it for nothing? Of course we can. But, you know, the real world still keeps intruding into our dreams and grading roads costs real money.

Relationships with communities still requires us to pay for actual infrastructure and insurances don't go away even if you pretend that they don't exist.

[TJ] (48:41 - 48:43)

Yeah, they almost double every year, don't they?

[Tereasa] (48:43 - 49:50)

Yeah, it's just like super real, you know, and required us to be really sober about that decision and then go back to the community and say, hey, this is what we're experiencing. And we don't feel comfortable or confident taking this level of risk with the small amount of money that we've got left. So what we then heard was like, okay, we understand that.

People, when they have the chance to hear it, understood that. And then they were like, okay, cool. So you like the idea of moving to another site and, because we had found another site, but then we were exploring the idea of, well, what if we go back to Mattong and then go back here?

And overall, once people understood why we needed to move and what the concerns were, they actually just said, look, we do like the idea of coming back together. And the site bit was less important, the togetherness, the community, the making stuff, striving, common goals, excitement, hot people from other places. That's just me.

[Stevan] (49:50 - 49:55)

A huge desire for a collaborative cyclical burn, like a big burn.

[Tereasa] (49:56 - 50:26)

Yeah. But that's a beautiful, fantastic dream. And it wouldn't be something that we would be steering.

It would be something that we would be co-creating with conversation and absolute care about generating really interconnected goals and hopes. Because the last thing is we want, we recognize that there's that legacy layover stuff from REC, the trainwreck.

[TJ] (50:27 - 50:28)

Oh, snap.

[Tereasa] (50:29 - 50:31)

Yeah, I just felt that in myself.

[TJ] (50:31 - 50:34)

That's good. Write that down. That's going to be a meme.

Can we clip that? Clip that.

[Tereasa] (50:37 - 52:31)

You know, of the overlords, right? And it's like, okay, look, just because I say, well, I'm not an overlord. Like I'm only going to do that.

If you ask kindly and, you know, maybe more than once. But it's actually, we still have that shadow. So we have to operate with that in mind.

So kind of recognize that there is that challenge and really compensate for that by making careful, considerate, collaborative approaches. Also for things like if we're going to have a big burn with lots of different orgs coming together, which we love the idea of. But for now, what we have is we've really listened to as many people as we had the capacity for within the timeframe of, you know, actually ended up being about 10 weeks actually.

Heard diverse audiences, you know, we tried to get people like neurodiverse people, people from regional areas, people from metropolitan areas, people who were parents, people with, you know, access needs. You know, so we really tried to think about it in lots of different ways and hear different perspectives. And what we heard was, Hey, we understand the pain that you're sitting in as a board and we support the vision you have for moving.

And we understand why you're doing that. And let's do it kind of thing where we reached at the end of that was let's go and let's honor what we've had in Matong. Let's honor that through our continued and ongoing investment of time.

Let's go and continue to honor the place and the forest, the land and our connection to the country there. Let's go and honor the connection to the people there. So it doesn't mean that we forget where we've come from, but rather we expand out and continue in a collaborative approach that has respect for everyone.

[Stevan] (52:31 - 52:52)

Yeah. We mentioned the key dates or the most popular dates for a burn in Australia would be October long weekend where it still falls within the fire restrictions. And the other one is Easter.

So those are the two proper dates and they've been taken over, you know, with other festivals and other burns already. What other considerations are you looking at in terms of dates?

[Tereasa] (52:52 - 53:33)

Well, we've been doing another, you know, research project. Cause it's again, it's like, it's not for us to go, Oh yeah, cool. I like this date.

It's for us to put it out to the community and overwhelmingly at this time, it's still open right as we speak. I think that, you know, it's going to close within week, I think actually. But basically overwhelmingly it's been Anzac day.

So that's going to be the one that feels like it's our time and it feels pretty solid winner actually of a surprise, but it's well in the forefront as people's preference.

[TJ] (53:33 - 54:27)

It was really awesome to TT that because we put it out in that format, in that survey, et cetera, a lot of people had like strong voices. I wanted this date. I wanted this date.

But then once they got the survey and all things were considered and they saw the decision-making process, I think that made it a lot easier for them to come around to the dates that they chose being Anzac because Easter obviously got bathing spawn, but then you have to think about the default world stuff as well. Easter, you know, most of your sites and your campgrounds, it's good luck trying to book them, you know, during Easter, which I've just realized, you know, after speaking to the people we're speaking to at the moment. So, you know, the calendar is nice and free.

Where do we fit in on that? It's not going to make everybody happy, obviously, but again, like TT was saying, we've gone to the community and the community is overwhelmingly looking at this date because somebody in Victoria, who shall remain nameless, has found a new home in October, which is cool.

[Tereasa] (54:27 - 54:35)

Which is good because I like going there. I totally want to go there then because otherwise it's freezing. Can't cope.

[TJ] (54:36 - 54:37)

Great question, Steve.

[Stevan] (54:37 - 55:07)

Let's go through some of the other milestones that you guys have achieved through your eight-week period transitioning to the new board. One of the things that I saw was the board stabilisation. You guys got seven people there and it's, you know, you guys have regular meetings, regular chats, always on communication.

And the other thing was the cultural projects, some of the cultural projects and community gratitude that you guys have also done in the last few weeks and months. What can you tell us about that? Some of the stuff that you guys have achieved.

[Tereasa] (55:08 - 55:21)

Yeah, well, look, we're getting involved in what we can, right? Like, so I think that, look, we've got Mardi Gras inaugural float. I'm so excited about that.

I am honestly, you know, the first time I went to see it is 2017.

[TJ] (55:22 - 55:36)

Can we just stop for a sec? Like, that is a massive, massive thing to have a float in the Sydney Mardi Gras. Like, that's no small fucking feat.

Excuse my French. Congrats to the team. That's super proud.

That's a very proud moment. I have nothing to do with it.

[Tereasa] (55:38 - 56:41)

It's so cool. And I think it's like that thing of when you, you know, what I was saying is like you look around and you think, who could be in this room? You know, and when I say room, I mean paddock, right?

It's like who else would find this place home? And I think increasingly that even just increasing visibility of the existing queer people within our own community and making it an explicitly welcoming queer space, it's always been queer. It's just that now this is making it explicitly so that, of course, it's a safe place for queer people.

And so this really represents such an amazing achievement because we just are supporting people in our community. But anyway, I'm so excited about that. What other cool stuff have you been doing?

It feels like we've been listening a lot. We've just been listening and trying to understand what people think and feel. What else have we been doing, TJ?

[TJ] (56:41 - 57:40)

Yeah, we've been working in the background and cleaning up that email thing. I think we're down to like 60-something now email accounts. And for those listening, the email accounts, as part of our organizational structure, maybe I should just open the door.

What's behind the green curtain? Anyway, as an organization, obviously we need to keep that institutional knowledge, those transactional, not transactional, but the records of interactions with people. So we have email accounts.

Mine's hotwire at burning seed, for example. And then all our team leads and team members will have those. That's been a huge undertaking to clean those up.

Some people have had those email accounts for 10 plus years. I understand that in BlackRock City, if you've worked for them for an extended time, you still get to keep your at burning man handle email. And we'd love to do that in the future, but we just can't at the moment.

So that's a massive milestone that we're getting very close on fixing, and that will significantly reduce our bill and put that structure back in. So it's very clear who's doing what.

[Tereasa] (57:40 - 57:46)

We're on team meetings every week, right? It's like every single week.

[TJ] (57:46 - 57:47)

Every week for two and a half hours.

[Tereasa] (57:48 - 58:49)

I'm always so amped. I cannot even go to sleep until like 2 a.m. every Tuesday. It might seem like, oh, what are the cultural things we're in?

But to be honest, it's like structural and it's philosophical and it's deeply interested in how we can do things in a sustainable way or how we can do things in a way that increase accessibility or how we can do things in a way that are going to meet the needs of the most people in our community. So there's so many of this type of conversation that we are having, even before we get to the point where we make things happen. But we are making things happen every week, even if it's like, okay, now we've completed the listening campaign and now we're going to get on to making a comms campaign.

I dream of having a well-being program for us all. We talk about other things that we can do, a bit like lots of small events.

[TJ] (58:49 - 58:55)

Like corporate team building events with Sundays or whatever. Again, tax write-off, tax write-off.

[Tereasa] (58:56 - 58:57)

Or Hong Kong Junks.

[TJ] (58:57 - 59:33)

Another big one is obviously Marcelo and everyone is starting to really get the role descriptions for team leads and starting to really shape those teams. The org structure is evolving constantly based on what we need now. Three months ago, it was looking quite big and convoluted, where it's now getting really sharp.

And we're really starting to identify as we get a little bit more operational, what key roles we're going to need and what kind of people we need in those roles. And people are starting to come out of the woodwork again, which is awesome. A lot of people have been watching on the wings and waiting and seeing, and now they're starting to get engaged, which is amazing.

Marcelo could probably speak more of that.

[Marcelo] (59:33 - 1:00:15)

No, yeah, it'll be good to put the org chart eventually out so everyone can see, which it's in six or seven different sections. And the good part is that each person on the board is kind of a lead of the sections.

So kind of the communication is going to flow better because everyone's going to be knowing where everyone is at. And so it's pretty good. And now we're getting team leads in place, like TJ said, Hotwire, Kingling.

So, yeah, we're getting there. It's with the aim for next year, slowly. But everyone can come and join us because the more the better.

[Stevan] (1:00:15 - 1:00:22)

Can I ask you, Marcelo, you were there at the 2023 or 2022 Burning Seed event?

[Marcelo] (1:00:22 - 1:00:25)

Yeah, I was part of town council and comms.

[Stevan] (1:00:25 - 1:00:53)

Yeah, so what I want to talk about is how you guys have also, one of your milestones is looked at governance and looked at the democratic reform of the structure of the org.

Now, with the experience of the 23 Burn, which you guys didn't actually burn anything, and all the other, I guess, the governance around that as well, that kind of restricted certain things, how has it changed now? And what are you guys looking to do with some of the roles that you talked about? And also the volunteering part of it, it's a big key aspect of it too.

[Marcelo] (1:00:53 - 1:01:38)

Yeah, that's a lot of volunteers who came in 2023, 2022, 2023 that are going to be part, continuing to the structure and everything. Yeah, I mean, there was a big backslash in 2023 with the old org not wanting the event to happen, but it happened anyway because there was another energy going. As of now, it's completely different.

I can see the old volunteers, the old community, older community from 2019 and previous years, really stepping up as well. So I can see that. Yeah, I can see that's just a matter of time for everyone to come back together.

And we're working towards that for next year.

[Stevan] (1:01:38 - 1:02:04)

Yeah, the other thing was it's written on the website. People can go and see all these debriefs and results. The other thing that was featured on the website or the debrief was the strong support for a different site and looking around and prospecting for what's available within the New South Wales region and weighing the difference between what Matong has to offer and some of these other new sites has to offer as well.

[TJ] (1:02:05 - 1:02:39)

Oh man, if Matong was like affordable and easy for us, that's a no brainer. It's flat. It's a little bit of room to work on.

Maybe not so great when it gets a bit wet, but yeah, any kind of place like that. I remember years ago when we first started talking about moving sites, I was like, let's go somewhere where it's just flat and open and there's no trees or bush or anything. It's just a blank canvas.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many factors to go into it. Matong is awesome. If we had the cash and the peeps, it'd be so rad to get back there.

But also the new site that we're looking at is fucking incredible. It's really nice.

[Tereasa] (1:02:40 - 1:02:55)

Oh, it's glorious. It is absolutely dreamy. It is the type of thing that you would see a photo of and you'd think it doesn't matter where in the world you were, you would think, oh, wow, I want to go there.

[TJ] (1:02:55 - 1:02:55)

Spectacular.

[Stevan] (1:02:56 - 1:03:02)

Well, we just want a site that doesn't flood, right? That doesn't trap us in a weather kind of situation.

[TJ] (1:03:03 - 1:03:08)

Yeah, and obviously it's reasonably flat so we can have art and structures that we can build and whatnot.

[Stevan] (1:03:09 - 1:03:10)

Mutant vehicles, yeah, that's a big part.

[TJ] (1:03:11 - 1:03:11)

Yeah, yeah.

[Stevan] (1:03:11 - 1:03:24)

So the state forest of Matong, it's been used for many of years. Is the future of Burns going to be more about moving into a property that is away from the state, away from the government?

[TJ] (1:03:25 - 1:04:37)

Man, that's a great question. It's probably a Gabe question because Gabe's been doing all this hardcore DA paperwork, et cetera. But you're damn right.

And that just seems to be the way that the governments and the powers that be can make us and festivals go away. It's just admin and fees you into fucking oblivion. Excuse my French.

And then now what they're slowly learning is that those local communities and the states as a whole lose a lot of money and lose a lot of tourism and wonderful community building. It's really, really strange landscape at the moment, I think. I hope that we can come out of it.

Like TT said, it's really up to us because we're Burners. We're different. We're not a commercial event.

We're not there to make money and have superstar DJs come and all that kind of jazz. You know what I mean? We're there to make a community.

We're there to create and be together and explore and have fun and almost die a couple of times outside of that whole corporate weirdness. But we're still going to live in it a little bit. So as far as finding venues, yeah, if there's property owners out there who are struggling, if your sheep aren't sheeping or your cows aren't cowing, there's a pretty decent market for us wild children to come out there and have a go.

[Stevan] (1:04:38 - 1:04:43)

So we can't talk about the new site at all. So I can't even mention it. I was just going to go there.

[TJ] (1:04:43 - 1:05:04)

Yeah. Look, just to give everyone some context on that, as Titi is saying, we're still in the planning stages. We're still talking.

It'd be so wrong for us to be so happy and let out what our awesome dreams and our plans and our futures are because we're just not at that stage with the local landholders. And we want to be very careful about what we present to our community and our membership before.

[Tereasa] (1:05:05 - 1:05:09)

Look, we can say there is stuff we can say. Like, I think we can say.

[Stevan] (1:05:09 - 1:05:21)

Well, let's talk about what needs to happen, what needs to be done by the SBA team, as well as the burning seed or the burning community in the East Coast, in Australia.

[TJ] (1:05:22 - 1:06:09)

Well, you've got to do your DAs. You've got to plan your budgets. You've got to talk to local stakeholders, the community members that you're going to be barging into.

You need to have massive amounts of communication to let them know. People have seen Burning Man online, but maybe they've only seen DJ sets where there's beautiful models dancing on a stripper pole. You know what I mean?

There's just so much involved in it. And we can't rush these things as much as we... We know we can do the things, but when you're going into someone else's property, whether that's State Forest or someone's backyard and their farmland, you've got to be very careful.

You've got to be careful not to over-promise and under-deliver, all that kind of jazz. And as things evolve, you've got to be careful not to like, oh, that's a great idea. Let's do that.

Who's running with it? We've got to be careful with what we say online. There's so many things that we need to navigate as a board and a community.

It's insane, but we can do it.

[Tereasa] (1:06:10 - 1:07:05)

Yeah, and I think that you're absolutely right in saying that. It is a stakeholder engagement process, not only our internal audiences, our different communities, understanding and representing that fairly. So saying who we are and the diversity of the people that we represent and looking for a space where we can indeed call home, where we can make art and music and fun and have workshops and all the exciting things that we do, craft.

And then it's also in talking to landowners, it's having a shared cultural appreciation. It's that we are not a commercial festival. We're not even a festival.

How do you explain the enigmatic nature of a community? It's actually something that you only better understand through experience.

[TJ] (1:07:06 - 1:07:22)

Yeah, and it's so difficult to explain it to them as well. Like when they ask you that, they don't quite get it. It's really weird for us or for me because you're like, oh, okay, yeah, this person literally doesn't get what we're doing.

And you're like, oh, have you ever seen pictures of the Grand Canyon? Yeah. Have you ever been there?

No. Okay, well, it's two different things.

[Tereasa] (1:07:22 - 1:08:50)

Yeah, there's a bit of, and then what we do come up against, I suppose, is that there's only specific stereotypes that are the most exciting to engage with. And we know what they are, except that that doesn't represent the whole. And so when we are speaking with people who might present us a venue, it's also understanding what their dreams are.

It's understanding how can we as a community build support for their vision and in what ways does it benefit them? Because we are a gifting community. We're a community that is built on strong relationships.

We're a community of dreamers who make things happen. Like it's actually, you want to be our friend. Like, you know, being a person who has land that has burners come means that incredible art happens and amazing things occur on your land.

But it's generating a true relationship. And so that doesn't happen quickly. It doesn't matter if that's a friendship or if it's a more high stakes relationship where it involves our home.

So we are, of course, doing that with a deliberateness, with conscientiousness and care and with authenticity.

[TJ] (1:08:51 - 1:09:27)

Totally. Like our burner ethos, you know, our principles that we've all been living for so long just seem like second nature to us. But really getting across the civic responsibility to leave no trace, these things that are now starting to really be commonplace in a lot of mainstream festivals.

We've been doing that for ages and really trying to explain that in a sort of really clear and concise manner that these landholders and stakeholders can understand. Because, again, they may only just see what's online and their Google results will vary. And it's so important for us to get and chat with these people and show and prove and do.

[Stevan] (1:09:27 - 1:09:50)

It's usually a case that if these people are not burners yet, they surely will become a burner at the end of it. So we've had cases like that at Blazing Swan, at Underland and various other burns. Yeah.

Let's get into the last let's take another break. We'll get into the last session, which is the future plans of Sunburnt Arts. And what do you guys have in store for us in 2027?

[Lani] (1:09:53 - 1:11:52)

My name is Lani Castle. I have met the professor. I am a convert tonight of meeting strangers and making new relationships.

And I think in the real world, we're so scared of people and there's a lot of aura around fear and hating what we don't know. And in a place like this, all of that falls away. And I'm happy to meet new people and open myself up to new experiences.

And this is the place to do that. So I've been thinking about new relationships recently. It's been on my mind quite a bit.

And tonight at this event, I met a woman called Ali. She said, I realized that when I come to these events, I've just been talking to my friends and I don't want to do that anymore. So I'm going to come up and introduce myself.

My name is Ali. What do you do? What do you love?

We had a wonderful conversation. She came and found me a little bit later in the night and said, OK, now it's your turn. Go talk to that guy, which is always a moment of anxiety.

But I went and I talked and I have made some new friends. I've learned some new things. I now have been invited to make a lampshade hat to a science YouTube channel and to a kink event, which are honestly all things I'm interested in.

And if it wasn't for Ali and remembering that I can talk to people and go wherever I want and start something new out of nothing, that wouldn't have happened tonight. So big thanks to this community. And change is good.

Octopus Crew signing out. Love you, Professor Stevan. Love your work. I'll turn your mic off now. I'm sorry.

[TJ] (1:11:55 - 1:12:01)

So I took the belt off my neck and then, yeah, I ran.

And that's the last time I'm going in Toys R Us.

[Stevan] (1:12:03 - 1:12:10)

Welcome back. Let's talk about the roadmap for SBA. What can you tell us?

So 2027, what are we looking forward to?

[Tereasa] (1:12:11 - 1:13:03)

Well, I am looking forward to increasing transparency on all levels. It starts with my clothing, obviously. And building from there, it is going to be, you know, hey, want to have a look at my finances?

Hey, how do you feel about my volunteer capacity? Would you like to know a little bit more about the site relationships? Of course, because you're a member and then you actually get those member comps.

And then, of course, you have an opinion. And you are part of those face-to-face consultations that we do all the time, anytime there's something really important. Building on lots of small successes to build bigger and more integrated, successful events based on genuine collaboration rather than top-down approaches.

That's what I'm looking forward to.

[TJ] (1:13:03 - 1:13:08)

I think we all should give TT a round of applause for that awesome, totally not scripted, canned response.

[Tereasa] (1:13:11 - 1:15:41)

Yeah, but seriously though, we have learned from our crises, right? We've learned. We've learned from the past.

And that is genuinely what we want. I kind of like who out there can help us make a dashboard, you know, for our website where you can genuinely see things like what's happening, you know, in fiscally responsible ways, you know, available to our members, what's happening with our finances. Like why is this information completely only available to the select few?

I want transparency. I want it to be embedded into everything that we do. I want that concept of consultation to be at anything that's of significance to the membership.

I want it to feel like that it's community decision-making. And it's not a surprise when something comes out. It's just like confirmation of what you already heard through being part of conversations that were happening.

So it's not like you're waiting for some message to appear on Facebook or on Slack. It's that you were there because we were asking questions. You know, it's our job to facilitate questions that actually, you know, bring about enthusiastic responses.

And, you know, it's not about what we decided, but it's about what we heard and what we're responding to. That's more and more of that. Of course there's a few parties and some burning things and, you know, art.

There's all of those things that we love, but, you know, in building or rebuilding that it's sort of service-oriented. Make sense, right? And I guess it's like that's not just for our community, but it's for whatever home that we have.

It's like, oh, so we go out to the community. Right. Well, it's not a surprise what happens because we really do build genuine relationship.

It's building, you know, ways of getting people locally involved that makes sense for each of those crews. Like, you know, like getting local fire teams involved in the fire arts team, for example. You know, us doing planting and learning as much as we can about the local ecology from local mob.

And it's about understanding what species exist in different places and how it's us having a holistic approach in everything that we do. It's not performative.

[Stevan] (1:15:41 - 1:16:48)

I think it's been proven, especially last year in 2025, that our community is resilient and building upon the IBAG survey and some other data points and some other consultations and stuff like that. We do have a community that is ready, that is, you know, waiting in the wings, you know, waiting for some things to happen. So we are rebuilding that kind of trust, that kind of cohesion, the harmony back again, because we all want to see that everything is all inclusive, right?

We don't want to feel like, okay, this is a New South Wales burn or whatever. Yeah, and we're moving forward and rebuilding the key infrastructure and organisation. So a lot of work that you guys have done.

I fully appreciate it, love it, respect everything you guys do. So I'm looking really looking forward to the future of SEED or the future of Sunburnt Arts. But, yeah, whether it's a name change or it's whatever it is, it's needed because what last year proved, especially with the cancellation of SEED, was that we had a renegade which was also significant in that our community is not falling apart.

[Tereasa] (1:16:49 - 1:19:48)

It's galvanising, right? It's like Embers, for example, like coming together, people just showing, oh my gosh, there's so much passion, there's so much enthusiasm, there's so much competency and there is such an incredible amount of diverse skills. And I guess, you know, it's also that there really has to be an emphasis on healing too.

Like, you know, yeah, shit went down and let's not pretend it didn't go down. Let's engage with that. Let's sit in our difficult feelings and co-regulate like herd animals and restore friendships, relationships, capacity, build that new direction in a sustainable way.

You know, and one of the things I really love thinking about is like pleasure. Can we do volunteerism with pleasure? Can we do our events with pleasure?

Can we get better and better at how we communicate with one another so that it's more and more pleasurable for us to do this? Like, of course, you ask a sexologist and they say, you know, that we should think about pleasure, but that's why we're there, right? We are literally doing this stuff because it's really pleasurable.

Let's put that at the center, at the heart of what we're doing so that the volunteerism, everyone is like, this is such a good vibe. Oh my God, this team feels fantastic. I love being here and that we all feel equipped for what happens when your tent falls over and then someone else comes, helps you out and there's the joy of knowing that you're held in a community.

It's like we're celebrating those types of things and increasing the ways that we support one another, care for one another, show up for one another because the world is a different place than that. And that is what we have. We have this beautiful, outrageously dependable community of incredible capacity.

And if we strengthen that throughout absolutely tested relationships because we love going out into outrageous places and doing difficult things, then that actually has a knock-on effect for every aspect of our lives. So, yeah, I guess it always comes back to that for me, like how can we make those connections more powerful, more palpable, more meaningful? And, yeah, some of that is amazing events.

Some of it is striving towards art and some of it is acknowledging that there was some really hard times that we get an opportunity to heal through and how will we do that? Let's engage with that. Some of it is thinking about colonialism and patriarchy and capitalism and all of the constructs that we live within.

It's all of that.

[Stevan] (1:19:49 - 1:19:53)

Marcelo, how do you see what are you guys' plans ahead?

[Marcelo] (1:19:53 - 1:20:57)

Well, after Tereasa, she spoke from the heart. It was nice to hear. I agree with everything.

Yeah, she's the one who brought the community consultation and having our comms strategy for the future. So it's very good. And with the crew aspect, we did just one run for crew, and we got 30, 40 people already keen to come and help create the structure we need with leadership for next year.

So now I can see that the energy is very strong. It's there. Every time we give comms out, you see there's a lot of people with passion that hear us and want to talk to us, and it's great.

Now that we are a community that is run by its members, I see that next year is going to be a good foundation for great burns to come.

[Stevan] (1:20:58 - 1:21:01)

And you guys don't say that you guys are ready for something this year?

[Marcelo] (1:21:02 - 1:21:27)

I think if we see what happened last year with restructure coming out and in a few months, oh, let's do this event without the community consultation that we needed. And so that's why I believe if we wait to next year, probably around the exact day, who knows, we're going to have enough time to have the right structure, the right volunteers in place and be successful.

[Tereasa] (1:21:28 - 1:22:35)

Yeah, look, we're definitely going to do fun things. Like fun things is the heart and life of what we do, but it's building in a way that builds our capacity. It's building in a way that we can rely on.

It's ensuring that we have a success, and that means smaller thing, build the capacity, training. You know, we're in an interesting place where we are both a really mature, thriving community, and we're kind of like a startup in some ways, and we have that agility. But we have to acknowledge that's where we are, and we have this sort of vision of who we were, and yet we've moved into a new domain.

And yeah, we just want to do that in a way that is really heart focused. You know, the people are at the centre of that, and they are successful because we enabled their success. And it's a bit slower, but it's really purposeful.

[Stevan] (1:22:36 - 1:23:25)

Yeah, I think if we're to bank on the name of Burning Seed, we've seen it could be detrimental because we've seen the results of it is that the ticket sales wasn't there, and people have other priorities now. You know, people have other ideals now in terms of the burn community. So just using or just living off that Burning Seed name is no longer beneficial.

So we have to move forward and look at other ways of building the community, not just around that one event. So yeah, you guys are doing some amazing work there, rebuilding, refocusing, and bringing the East Coast burn community back. What have you guys, in terms of your own self, what's on your burn calendar this year?

Anything exciting you're looking forward to?

[Tereasa] (1:23:25 - 1:24:27)

You know, I guess I'm feeling like the most exciting thing I do is turn up to the board meeting every Tuesday evening. You know, I love going to events, but I'm also a solo mum. I'm going to the Spice fundraiser in a couple of weeks, and I'm like so amped for that.

I cannot wait for that. And gosh, when I see – I get Jomo, you know. It's like there's so many beautiful, incredible events, and I'm just so glad that the people exist and they're going to them.

You know, Blazing Swan was my first event, and I love it so much and cannot wait to go back. Underland I just love, and I kind of just have to leave it to the last minute to see what I'm capable of doing. But I don't really plan out a calendar.

I just plan out, you know, the weekly doing the thing, turning up, being part of this. These are the ways that I can get that excitement.

[Marcelo] (1:24:27 - 1:24:54)

Yes, I'm a bit the same now with a young girl, a young baby. So it's creating the next event. That's my main focus.

Of course, if I have time, I'll go to a boss, a barner of Sydney and surroundings, I think get a hot dog. That was the last event. Yeah, that's what I'm mainly looking for, but really working towards our next one.

[Tereasa] (1:24:54 - 1:25:51)

Yeah, sorry, we're not the party animals. We're big, you know, TJ and the rest of the people are party people. They totally, we are those people.

But we just, you know, one of the things I'm really excited about is like getting like nerdy scientists together to debate stuff, like hot topics and maybe like dreaming of like, oh, what if we have like more cabarets? Or what if we do local things where we're sharing different skills? Or, you know, I dream about so many different things, scaling people up in different ways.

But really in the end, it's like, oh, how do people come together? What are the ways that we can provide more opportunities for people to build stronger, more resilient friendships? That's the sort of stuff that I sit around thinking about, and costumes, and hairdressers, of course, yeah.

[Stevan] (1:25:53 - 1:26:04)

Okay, let's talk about how we can become members of Sunburnt Arts then, and how do we get involved and, you know, put a hand up for volunteering and all that. So what are some of the contact information?

[Marcelo] (1:26:05 - 1:26:36)

Yes, please go to our website, sunburntarts.org. And yes, there's a membership tab there, and it has all the information. And it's $10 a year, really, subscription.

We are not for profit, so it goes straight to the org. And yeah, we have monthly forums. We have a Slack channel for all members as well.

And there's where we inform everyone about what we need, what's happening.

[Tereasa] (1:26:36 - 1:27:49)

Yeah, sunburntarts.org.au forward slash membership is where you will find it. And we just would love everyone to get involved. And we, yeah, like we put out monthly membership emails, where we kind of like do really deep dives into operational stuff, and we try to like be as transparent as possible.

We're pretty keen on making Flaming Galah into more like a broadsheet or like a magazine. We'd love to hear from people who have fantastic burning stories. We want to publish things that are fun and exciting.

We are looking for someone who could be like an agony aunt, like a burner, who could give great advice or not so great advice, funny advice. And we're open to other ideas on that. It's like, oh, can we make things that are really representative of our community?

So we're thinking about that. And yeah, we're just really interested also in what others are thinking about and what you guys and girls and they, thems are thinking and would like to experience and what we can bring to the front that would, you know, enrich your life.

[Stevan] (1:27:49 - 1:28:35)

Yes, thanks very much, everyone, for coming on and sharing us and giving us some updates. I was actually looking forward to some more concrete dates and, you know, more information, but that information will be revealed, you know, as it comes along. It's only been a few weeks since the consultation and the results and all the results from it.

But yeah, we'll definitely get you guys back on, especially the other board members, to talk about more developing news and updates in terms of the dates and the site and, you know, theme camps and who people is going to get involved, all that stuff, all that good stuff. What about some of the dreams that you guys were talking about earlier? What are some of the things that you think can happen within the community, you know, burning community here in Australia?

[Tereasa] (1:28:35 - 1:28:43)

Oh, wow. I want a burning retirement village. Can we have that?

Like, I don't want to go to an old…

[Stevan] (1:28:43 - 1:28:44)

So we'll grow old together.

[Tereasa] (1:28:45 - 1:29:15)

Yeah.

Like, I totally want that. I totally want that. I want to be somewhere where it's like, they have over 55 villages.

Can you believe it? It's like, wow. Can we have our own version of that with the big hole in the middle and the fun adventure times?

And then we have nurses and I don't know what people do. But, gosh, when I get that old, I would love to have that in a way that is, you know, a build with all of my community. So that's a dream.

Yeah.

[Marcelo] (1:29:15 - 1:29:18)

Perhaps on our own land, our burner land.

[Stevan] (1:29:18 - 1:29:40)

Yeah, that is definitely a big dream, having our own property, having our own site that we can share with other community, you know, segments of the community. Yeah.

That's something that we could have achieved, I guess, if there was no pandemic or, you know, a faster transition, power to the community. That could have been something that we could have realised, I think.

[Tereasa] (1:29:40 - 1:29:58)

Yeah. But we can build towards that again. Yeah.

I think it's putting things out, like dreams like this, out there and starting discussion about, well, one, what does the community mean to you? And, two, what is it that we want? Well, we want momentum as well.

[Stevan] (1:29:58 - 1:30:17)

I think we had a great, you know, first few years of burning seed, and then there was the floods, and then there was a pandemic and restructuring. So we just need to build that momentum again, I think. And I think we can.

We have such a strong, vibrant, you know, intellectual, and doers, a lot of doers. That's what you need for the community.

[Tereasa] (1:30:17 - 1:30:36)

I totally see us rebuilding. I mean, I wouldn't be putting this much effort in if I didn't think that this was completely within our capacity. A hundred percent, like within even my tenure of three years, I anticipate to see, to leave this community in a much stronger place where we are today.

[Stevan] (1:30:37 - 1:31:19)

Yeah. And as burners, we do practice immediacy, but we also need to practice patience, I think. The key thing, you know, I took away from the town hall meeting was that patience is not in action.

It just takes time. You know, I think with our community culture and the way we gather and present things, I think it's achievable. And as I've said before, I think is that the way I see it, it is a glass half full.

So very optimistic, very keen for the future. Thanks very much for coming on and discussing all these finer points. And yeah, when we get some more developments and more updates, definitely guys, invite you guys to come back on and share with us all these really exciting news.

Yeah, we look forward to it.

[Tereasa] (1:31:19 - 1:31:35)

Yeah. It's not going to be that long. I think, yeah, we're just scrolling away.

That's right. In terms of announcements and, you know, exciting news, I think that that's not so far away too. We just actually care so much.

[Stevan] (1:31:35 - 1:31:40)

As soon as when you notify me. Yeah. Let's spread it out there.

Let's get it out to the community.

[Tereasa] (1:31:41 - 1:31:49)

Totally. We just care so much about our community that we want to be clear with what we say and that we can definitely deliver, you know.

[Stevan] (1:31:49 - 1:31:52)

And honest and transparent. It's what the community deserves.

[Tereasa] (1:31:52 - 1:31:53)

Totally.

[Stevan] (1:31:53 - 1:32:13)

Yeah. Well, thanks for reflecting back and talking about all these key points. I know there's more to talk about and I've definitely, we'll ask the other board members to have their thoughts and their views.

But yeah, thanks. Thanks very much. It's very interesting.

Thank you. All right. This is going straight to the pool room.

Thanks very much. Have a good one.

[Marcelo] (1:32:13 - 1:32:13)

You too.

[Stevan] (1:32:14 - 1:32:14)

See you guys later.

[Tereasa] (1:32:14 - 1:32:15)

Bye.

[Marcelo] (1:32:15 - 1:32:17)

Bye. And PY.

[Tereasa] (1:32:17 - 1:32:18)

Thank you.

[Will & Kate] (1:32:22 - 1:32:29)

Bonzaar Podcast

Transcripts transcribed by TurboScribe.ai