Stevan: [00:00:00] All right. Hey Bonzaar. Welcome to this episode. We'll be talking about the independent burning advisory group, or IBAG, the background and the ideas behind the New South Wales Burns community survey, and unpack some of the intriguing insights and statistics from this world outlined report. And also look at some of the paths moving forward and the recommendations from this important community engagement.

Uh, with me, I'm joined by Peter and Rowan. Welcome guys.

Peter: Thanks for having us.

Rowan: Thanks, Steve.

Stevan: This is also sort of like an embers kind of reunion as well, so I think there was a, the last time we were on the paddock together. Now let's talk about this IBAG survey. Peter, what is the background and the whole idea behind it?

I think it was, it was from the, you were telling me it was from embers, right? We're sitting by a campfire and you were having these radical thoughts

Peter: Saturday night? It was Saturday night.

Stevan: Mm.

Peter: And at, you know, peak time, uh, it must have been 10 30 or 11, and [00:01:00] I had some crazy idea about the lighting or something, and Rowan was behind the, the, the desk.

Controlling the AV and the way brilliant way he does. And you know, we were talking and then he, I can't remember the conversation, but he said to me, we need to do a survey. And at that point I had just done wrapped up a big survey for, comprehensive survey of generative AI adoption of across Australia and New Zealand universities and stuff.

I was all about surveys and, and I was like, yeah, row, you're so right. And partly because, uh, the bubbles, Amelia Loy, who brought me into the PHE 10 years ago was our sort of, um, town census. Take her and she'd done it four or five times. It was always a big part of these things. And um, and since she had a fur baby, uh, a year ago, um, I figured there's a great opportunity to step up.

And so yeah, it was Rowan's, perfectly timed, brilliant suggestion. He then connected me with a couple of people at [00:02:00] Embers that would be worth talking to about it. Who then subsequently contacted. Yeah. You know, created a group chat, which became IBAG, and then yeah, it became. Definitely the most comprehensive survey in New South Wales history, but I'm proud to suggest that it's possibly the most, not the biggest, but the most detailed survey in Burner history.

I read, I read as many as I could get my hands on in the research phase of the project. Is that fair, Ron? Is what, what's your memory of that night? I wasn't exactly saying that.

Rowan: Yeah, I think that's, that's a good summary. But for look, for context, for anyone that's not familiar, we talked about census in the past and Amelia Lloyd Bubbles being one of the people conducting that, but that's been a, a, a regular fixture In every burn there's a post burn survey and a census just to see where we're at.

So what you've done and, and spearheaded is awakened that maintaining that continuity. But look, I'd hope to see that going forward, that every burn there is an exit census and, um, that could be [00:03:00] connected with our, our new governance and, and elections. So it's an all in one time to reflect, uh, offer opinions and, um, and, and make the voices heard.

Peter: Yeah.

Stevan: And what was the concepts and the motivations? So it's just a, so the background, I guess the story be behind this whole Embers Burn or Event Renegade was, was because seed was canceled. And from that we, we, we gathered together and had to figure out what were our next plans and our probably taking stock of our situation as well, of, of our community.

So what kind of, what, what were you, what kind of questions were you guys after to to, to sort of like to tell a story?

Peter: So after the day I got home from embers, after rows burning suggestion, I sort of went, did a deep dive into all the other burner surveys. So, um, obviously there's the, um, burning Man has their survey.

Uh, they've actually got a huge team. It's, it's really good. Um, Africa Burns done [00:04:00] really. Extensive surveys, Kiwi burners done as well. And they all measure different things. They're all about sort of, you know, understanding generally, like who,

who their, who the burners are. And um, and there's like different elements.

But what I really wanted to know was, um, what's our collective desire? Like, what do we want as burners, right? What's, what's the ideal event? And then what's our collective capability? What can we all build together? Because I kind of felt like. You know, there'd been a lot of, um, like we all had these big visions, right?

For big burning seeds and like, we wanted, we want to be like, as it was 10 years ago, but at the same time, you know, we weren't really able to deliver on that. So, yeah, I wanted to be able to like, work out what's the vision, what can we build together, and then like how do we achieve that vision given our collective, um, capabilities.

And then, like Rowan and the, we established a, I'll say that Rowan provided like insane amount [00:05:00] of high quality feedback to help really refine the types of questions. Things like, um, you know, what was the, how do we get representation from parents? Like, what do parents want? What do, what do the theme camps want?

Like, it was heaps like, and then we had the I Bag teams established, which was like all of the, you know, best veteran burners in, in New South Wales. Hmm. Cared a lot about the sector. And, and so we went through probably five or six different rounds of revisions, um, of the document, uh, the survey design, and then in the end, yeah, it was this polished, beautiful document that we'd collectively probably spend about two hours on across all of the teams.

Uh, yeah. So it was a really well designed survey. Yeah. So we're talking about,

Rowan: my comment is that I've, yeah, go for it. Uh, all I was, my comment on that was just that I think the process was almost as, as important as the result. Mm-hmm. And that process, as Peter talked about, was also really important. It's, it's, um, those conversations have, have happened and, and part of the, the question design that came out of that is not preconceiving the answers [00:06:00] and not, and not trying to steer the answers, but opening it up to, to, to that result.

Peter: Yeah. And then also it's worth mentioning that, um. I did like a renegade survey at this, uh, parallel, which was even more valuable. Um, that was really fantastic.

Um, it wasn't as, as, you know, uh, like a, the same, like, it wasn't the format that the IBAG survey was, but um, it was a qualitative survey, but. That was awesome.

Rowan: Well, we might have time to discuss that later, but Yeah. But that survey, um, was more talking to theme camps from a curation arts and culture or theme camps team perspective. And that that conversation is the thing that normally also, like a census regularly does happen annually with, with people talking on the phone to each other about a variety of things.

Um, the only difference is this time I, I tried to collate the results of that to offer some more insight at this time.

Stevan: Yeah. There was also a mini kind of survey after the embers event, uh, [00:07:00] happened and that kind of, uh, gave a, a little bit of an, an idea or a glimpse into. Um, not just the, the Embers community, but um, also the broader New South Wales, because we had burners coming from, from Melbourne, from Canberra, from, you know, Newcastle.

So, um, you know, it's, it was a good sort of like, you know, a companion to what you guys did. So let's talk about who else was involved and how did you get all these people together?

Peter: Yeah, so I think Ryan first connected me with Leanna. And Arianne was something, the two regional contacts, uh, and then Felipe and Gabe, uh, were, so I'm not sure how much people know these folks, but they're sort of veteran burners and, and community organizers.

Community leaders and Rollie. So anyway, the, the, the team were from a combination of the current sunburnt arts and at the time sunburnt events sort of directors or recent directors. It was all the three regional contacts for New [00:08:00] South Wales, uh, ly from who had organized embers and Theresa who, I dunno if had a specific affiliation at the time.

But yeah. And then that was really powerful because we could then. Promote through 20 or so different channels. And then with Rowan's, brilliant contacts, which was like, I think, I think we promoted almost through 50 theme camps, or at least identified 50 50 theme camps, which meant we had an incredible amount of cut through, like a lot of, a lot of engagement in the survey.

Stevan: Do you have anything to add?

Rowan: I, I was not involved in that process, which greatly, you know, was great. Um, I, I'm glad that I had those initial conversations with Peter and, um, and helped get the ball rolling. Triggered things a bit. I was able to add things, but at, at the same time, the less that individuals can all do, we can, can great.

Get a greater collective input. So, yeah, it was good [00:09:00] to, for me to be able to take a step back and not actually join that committee. Um, felt, felt right.

Peter: Felt wrong to me, but doesn't matter. It worked out well in the end. It worked out great. And it also meant that Ron was then freed up to do his survey, which was like a really powerful, um, contribution, a separate initiative.

But yeah.

Stevan: Let's talk about the, some of the methodologies and the, some of the limitations of the survey. So it, it, it was the survey, the, the timing was quite brief. Um, it was straight after the, the event, the, um, em, the Embers Renegade event. Mm-hmm. And it wa it only ran for a month, I think it was, or a few weeks.

So, so that some of the, those were some of the limitations for that survey. I thought it was, um, I mean you could have collected more people if there was more time. Had a bigger time span

Peter: maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Ran, it was open for three weeks. I, I kind of feel like I was surprised that we got five 20 responses.

I, and I think if we had left it open, we might have got a few more, but yeah, I could kind of like with any survey, you get a [00:10:00] peak when it goes live and then you get a second peak before it closes, but yeah, and it also, I feel like 520 people is roughly the number of active, highly engaged burners in New South Wales currently.

After a period of like. Burning seed's, been on hiatus for five years and you know, a lot of, there's a lot of camps now that like aren't burner camps that people part of because it's like lacking that big unifying burn. So, no, I, I feel like it, you know, we certainly got most people in terms of the method and limitation.

So the method was a combination of quantitative and qualitative analysis. So quantitative was all like, getting numbers on like, uh, how, how far would, how far would you be willing to travel? Or, you know, on a scale of one to 10, how, you know, whatever. And then qualitative, we answered a lot of open-ended questions, ask a lot of open-ended questions.

And then the great thing about the open-ended questions was I could then use a ton of AI to, um, do thematic analysis and machine learning to do [00:11:00] thematic analysis to sort of uncover, to, to turn those open-ended questions into sort of. Percentages around themes. So for example, we asked people, you know, what, what attracts you to the event?

And then found out that 70% of people, their open-ended responses, found community and connection as a key part of it. And we could do things like work out who are the personas of the burners who attend these events. So yeah, it was a, I think they call it a mixed method, Sur Me survey. I think Rowans was, yeah, more qualitative.

Um, but when you're calling as many people as he has did in that survey, then you start to get, you can start pulling out numbers. Yeah. Oh, and also Rowan. Now if you should send me the results at some point and then I can, um, analyze them some ai. Now I'm SBA board

Rowan: alright, if you command

No, but the, the results of that, um, the core of those results, I've made some [00:12:00] summary, there's a couple of recommendations, but the core of those results are one-on-one interviews. With, um, theme camp coordinators who are representing their own communities. And the purpose was really so that yes, Peter, people are you not just summarize their data but can engage with them personally.

And, um, sometimes in the past we've almost had a little bit of yin and yang between crew and between camps, but the camps at their best are communities of people. And, um, and then that way when people are considering dates and venues, they can actually engage with those theme camp, uh, contacts directly.

But at least my report has got a decent amount of info as a basis to, to know, you know, to know what the, where their sentiment lies before chatting.

Stevan: And, and what kind of channels did you use, uh, Peter with, with um, getting the engagement and, and, and the survey done?

Peter: Oh, good question. So we, what I'm to bring up the comms plan.

So we had burning seed. Website Burning Facebook page, boss [00:13:00] Facebook page, Sydney announcements, lists. The Burning Man Australia newsletter. I dunno if we did that one. Sydney Burners group, some Discord server, all the Facebook groups, burning Man, Newcastle and whatnot. But I actually think that the channels that got the most impact were, and I don't have the data for this, I wish I'd sub track this was actually the, um, all of the people that Rowan sent it to when he, I don't know if that was like part of the, his survey, like his, you know, discussions or, or like separate or whatever.

But it's really the theme camps that I think did the distribution. Of course, it's those official channels that give it legitimacy and the, you know, meant everyone knew about it and heard about it, but I think people were motivated when they heard about it through their theme camp leads. That's my theory at least.

Did you? Yeah. Did you promote it wrong? We never spoke about it. I know you were.

Rowan: Oh, no, I certainly did. Yeah. Certainly did my best and, and tr tried to get those links to the right people that I was hoping [00:14:00] would then share it with their friends or, um, their networks of people. But yeah, there's, you know, most of these theme camp collectives and I guess some crew collectives, they've, there's a chat, there's some sort of rolling chat going, uh, with, you know, alerts, alerts pop up on, yeah.

Stevan: There was also some confusion in terms of whether, whether the survey is relatable to them or whether they should be even sort, like filling it in really well. Well, yeah. Um, it's, it's wasn't, I mean, we, I think a lot of people understood that is it was from, because of seed not happening. So they wanted to, you know, the, um, the survey was about seed.

Um, but it was, but it was, it was mainly asking about New South Wales burns.

Peter: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So this was the interesting problem. It was an interesting, hard problem, a, a dilemma we had to face originally. Which is, what was the scope, who's the audience? Because initially it was just gonna be like, we're gonna focus on New South Wales burners.

Right? That's nice and easy. But then it was like, but a lot of these [00:15:00] channels are Australia wide, so we want to, and we wanna be able to promote it through say, burning Man Australia. And we recognize that there's a lot of Victorians that come to Burns in New South Wales. So the scope ended up being focused on the New South Wales Burns community, not New South Wales burners, but like community around New South Burns, of which say 10% were interstate.

Like it wasn't, it wasn't a hundred percent.

Um.

Burners and it's worth pointing. It was meant to be independent. It wasn't about burning seed, it was about, you know, it was people answered from Sunset Town, people answered from like the degree and other camps. Like it was about what, and I think one thing that's interesting here, I think about a bit is like, I think a lot of burners think about Burner community in terms of theme camps and stuff.

I, I'm a free diver. I come from this, from like the world of free diving. Uh, and I think of burning, like free diving in that it's, it's irrespective who or who organizes it or where it is or [00:16:00] what you do. We're all doing the same fucking thing and it's great and it should, should be done. It doesn't matter who organized it.

It's like we have the same hobby. It's just like, yeah. Organized at different times by different people in different places. So yeah, I kind of in, in a way. My approach to this was like surveying a bunch of free divers, asking about how free diving is organized in New South Wales, but as applied to, to burning.

It wasn't about burning seed, it was about all of the events. Yeah.

Stevan: Did you find tion Ron? Yeah.

Rowan: Uh, just, well this was initially an opportunity for a bit of a reset, slow things down, a bit of a healing in the actual process and to trigger conversations at all levels. Not just a survey, but people talking to each other about where we're at, what they think.

And my perception was that, uh, leadership had perhaps felt a bit of pressure. Like prior to this, trying to reignite the burn, uh, pressure for timing and, um, and push, push full [00:17:00] blown towards that with not a lot of opportunity to have these conversations. So yeah, that's, that's a background for me. Um, and it's opportunity for, for people from Melbourne or Victoria or other states to actually make their sentiment felt and heard.

And personally I did my best to promote it to people in Victoria and networks so they'd be aware of it. Um, but we are talking about hosting a burn in New South Wales, you know, that's, that's the, that's the common, common thread. So yeah, we've tried to communicate that to counter any confusion about who, who should participate.

Stevan: Alright, let's take a break and we'll be at the other, at the other side of the break. We'll get right into the findings and some of the insights from the results after these, uh, short burner voice messages.

Katax: Guys, this is Emperor Katax and I want to ask you, just keep it up. You know, what [00:18:00] we did as burners was just amazing.

All those nights, all those parties, workshops together, talking nature, cold, rain, dust, you know, all those things. It was just beautiful. So I just like to say, just keep it up.

Probably need some water.

Flipper: Hi everybody, this is Flipper Ranger at Burning Seed, third degree and other things. Just remember everybody after years of in the wilderness, let's all try and get together, reform and rekindle our love for burner spirit and let's make burning great again in Australia.

Stevan: Okay, we're back. So this survey, this result here, this is like a million dollars [00:19:00] worth of KPMG kind of, you know, consulting here. So let's get into some of the findings and results, some, some of the stories that was unfolding here that you saw.

Peter: Yeah, thanks Steve. I think, so there are three key takeaways, I think in my perspective.

Um, and it, it was a lot, you know, so we had 520 responses and each person took 10 minutes, which results in about 10. I think it looks out to be about 10 days of collective burner time. We spent, I don't know, maybe five days I've got the maths. But, you know, there's so much data, right? I, I, I barely even touched the size, right.

But I think the three. Top takeaways in my mind was that, um, we are seasoned burners with deep roots. So, um, the majority of people have attended more than five burns. Uh,

Stevan: in other words, we're getting old.

Peter: We're getting old. Yeah, yeah, we're getting old. Um, that's actually, that's another finding. Yeah.

Actually that there is, [00:20:00] uh, it is an older crowd. Um, and, and that's partly because I think it takes, it, it's not an easy skill, you know, like burn burning's, not the sort of thing you, you know, it takes a fair bit of gear and. Uh, camping experience and like, you know, it's, it's, it's advanced camping, you know, when you think about it.

Um, so it's not surprising that it tracks Ola crowd. I also think part of it as well is that, you know, without having these big unifying burns, the people that are engaged are the other. People that are drunk for Kool-Aid already, like we're not bringing in a whole bunch of new people right now. Whereas if it was like different, different than, you know, that we had burning seed or something, there might be more.

Um,

Stevan: and that poses some of the, some issues as well just within that itself. So, yeah, it's very interesting. Yeah,

Rowan: yeah, no doubt there's been reduced participation because it's big, it's events are more exclusive, you know, people are working at who to invite and, and um, so it's disappointing, but yeah. Uh, I've heard fe one theme camp comment along the lines of what you were saying, [00:21:00] Peter is, uh, dilute the crusties, dilute, dilute them down a bit.

Peter: Yeah. Love that. That should be badge. I make that a badge. Um, dilute the crusty.

Stevan: Make it a badge. Make it a t-shirt, a badge, A cap. Yes. Let's do it. Slogans.

Peter: Yeah.

So yeah, I think that's one thing. Takeaway. Yeah.

Stevan: So we we're aging, um, we we're getting older as a, as a community.

Peter: Yeah. The second one is that we were a man neurodivergent majority.

So something like, seems like a buzzword. Neuro divergent. There should also be a, um, a badge. I mean, I mean badge mode for, um, the third degree. So yeah, neuro majorities definitely

one.

Um, something like 60 59%, um, rec identified as neuro diversion, by which I mean 40% said that they were neurodivergent, many of which had a DHD like myself or, um, and [00:22:00] then 30 20% said that they were like potentially neurodivergent or they were on their own journey or something.

And then yeah, 40% said they didn't. Um, which kind of interesting because like, you know, the whole point of being you're divergent is that you're in a minority, like, you know, by definition. And so to be in a location where. Where the major, the majority of people are neuro diversion or experiencing or on their journey is kind of very interesting and perhaps explain some of this, why it's such an accepting community.

Um, it also explains why there's so many problems in organizations in like organizing the events because, you know, people need spec specific accommodations and, you know, presumably a lot of neurodivergent organizers, which means things that are ne ne, you know, necessarily gonna be, you know, amazing and big and beautiful, but also be chaotic.

So I think that's the second one. A third was really around our intense volunteering capabilities. So something like the average person contributes [00:23:00] in 3.2 different ways. So that's like the vast majority of people have multiple contributions, whether that's like different volunteering teams or they're like, uh, an artist and on gate or whatever.

Um, so there's like. A real risk of burnout, um, but also a real opportunity to properly fully leverage all of those capabilities. And I, and I think it's like one takeaway from this for me, for me was how are we, are we really mobilizing all of the volunteers? Like, I don't think so. I think where there's a lot we could be doing better to fully leverage this whole 520.

Minimum people with intense amounts of volunteering experience.

Stevan: Were you surprised Rowan, with the, with the stats there, with the, the neuro, neuro divergent people burners?

Rowan: No, it was certainly insightful. Um, I can't say I'm surprised because it's something I've considered before. I've been like, Hey, got all these people surrounded by.

Um, yeah, so interesting. Yeah, I think, um, when we're talking [00:24:00] about also volunteering, just touching on a couple of Peter's points and, um, you know, enthusiasm and difficulties at doing things sometimes, or, or the cohesion, there's so much freedom and people are genuinely trying to gift and bring their best skill.

Hello? Are you still there?

Peter: You there on, we can hear you.

Rowan: Yeah. Sorry, it just dropped for a moment. There

Peter: a second. But all good.

Rowan: Uh, well, sorry about that, but just, uh, my insight was volunteering people contributing their best skill. Everyone genuinely wants to gift and look, some people do that in these areas, like their, um, their heavy lifters.

They're, they're managing some logistics or they're building something, but when people are delivering their gift administratively, uh, they might be the bureaucrats, they might be in a corporate bureaucracy or some kind of skill there. So they wanna leverage a lot of that. So there's, there's so much stuff happening.

Um, and, and it can be, it can be, the comms can, can be overwhelming at times, but people are generally just trying to be the best they can can be and deliver what, [00:25:00] whatever that be. Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. If I can go on about some of the insights, uh, Steve, unless there's a specific question, but. We also, some of the more interesting insights were around what's really working and what's really not working in the New South Wales Burns community.

So, um, I think a key theme throughout many of the questions was that the small burns that we do have currently have been going strong for us four to five years are doing really well. You know, everyone, um, some people, I think there's a quote, the best thing that's happened is the explo implosion of seed because it's allowed new things to sprout and those events have like lower costs, less burnout, more innovation.

So I think there's this like widespread recognition that whilst our, you know, we, things are working really well. Currently, like, you know, people miss seed. It's left a giant hole, but it's actually still a good time. Um, and nothing shows that better than burning seed, right? Which is, um, when Raleigh was able to [00:26:00] step in and, you know, had heaps of mobilized all the entire community and that finally there's a whole bunch of great ecosystem stuff happening.

Burning Pub, um, organized by Nugby was a, was recognized by a lot of people. There's still a lot of activity on the Facebook and Discord dis discord groups, and there's a lot of people still feel quite connected. On the flip side, there's a lot of major challenges that kind of were revealed by the survey.

The survey. So like, yeah, you know, we want a big burning seed again. Um, we want big burn. Uh, people are really keen for that. Um, there's a lot of issues around trust and leadership, so people were, I think there's a lot of egos, I guess that's always inevitable. Uh, and that there's a, I think, big recurring thing, two big recurring things was around communication.

It's like really hard unless you're on Facebook and you're like on all the channels, it's really hard to find out the right information. Uh, [00:27:00] it's like chaotic. It's all over the place. It's like who's actually on checking their Facebook feed and the Facebook is like just an algorithm. It's not there to show you what's actually happening.

It's there to, you know, I dunno how it works, but yeah. And then finally there's some problems around volunteer resourcing. So the shifts are too long. Some many people complaining that, you know, the theme camp leads are going broke. And then, you know, recurring theme was like the core crew are doing 80% of the work with the event.

So there's a, you know, there's a big need across the board for some sort of significant changes to how we operate.

Stevan: Okay. So the collective vision and the capabilities of, of this, uh, this snapshot of this portrait of our community, um, we we're aging, we're quite neurodiverse and we've got the capabilities.

Um, how, so I guess a question of. You know, um, bringing in, in new burners, but also bringing the, the, the people who've, who've burnt before, but you know, things happen. Life happens, or they, you [00:28:00] know, they've, they've moved away or something like that. So how do we also tap into that?

Peter: I feel like this is a good question for Rowan.

How do we mobilize everyone?

Rowan: Look. I think the event itself is the lifeblood that that really brings us together. It's the driver. So yeah, e events. Um, but yeah, look, looking at the principles, inclusion, um, uh, finding ways to bring it in. But in my mind, look, if the event size capacity's not large enough, it's straightaway.

It is, it is boxed to a degree. And you might even see an overlap of people jumping between these different boxes. And you can call that core crew or season crew. But, uh, yeah, that's, that. I, I perceive that that's been a barrier. So if we can have a larger, more inclusive event than there's gonna be more of a wave of a momentum.

And it, look, it's a, every year is renewal. Every year is unique. Um, and there's a lot of enthusiasm as people plan towards the event of a natural leaving time, [00:29:00] their own communities gather. And, and then that, that brings in, in more, you know, there's these rolling waves. To towards that outcome.

Peter: Yeah, I totally agree.

I think all of these problems come down to, like, all of our problems will be solved if we just have a really big inclusive event where everyone can get together and that that event is organized in a way that is, doesn't lead to people burning out. Like it's, it's funny how simple, despite the complexity of the problem, the solution is so freaking simple.

Organize a big event and do it well.

Stevan: Well, you also need the right conditions as well. So let's talk about, I guess, the community motivations, some of the personas when it comes to volunteerism. So let's talk about some of the motivations. Obviously pricing is a big issue. Some people feel like they're being priced out.

Also the dates and, and probably the site. 'cause people don't want to travel. So you did ask for people's preferences.

Peter: Yeah, yeah. Lots of questions around preferences.

Stevan: Was in the South [00:30:00] Coast, north Coast or we we're heading west towards, I don't know. Yeah. Orange or something.

Peter: Yeah, I'll, I'll run through that in a second.

I'll just say that one of the most interesting findings I thought, and so we, we'll go, we'll go through preferences in a sec, was these like five personas that came out of the survey. Um, and I'm just trying to find a nice summary thing in a sec. So yeah, we found out, we asked, we took all of the different questions and I fed them into an uh.

A couple of different AI models to try and understand these, uh, archetypes, personas, right? Um, how can you, like, how can we carve up these five personas? And I came up with these five and since really changed how I think about organizing burns and, and burns. The, the first persona, one of the largest is actually Rowan was just kind of referring to them.

I'm calling them veteran community architects, or, uh, the elder crew, um, or the core crew. Uh, you know, they've been to many events. They've got like, uh, they're, they're the Rowans, they're the, [00:31:00] um, the Shane Soss, the, you know, Mandel maze. They're the, um, year, they're just, they're, they make it happen, right?

They, they're the, the, the custodians to the event and the culture. Then there's the, the creative contributors, right? Who's, you know, this counts for about 32% of the community who maybe even are less events. They're very art and community focused. Their involvement's, typically project based, they don't care about burner politics or anything, but they're just there to create some beautiful artwork, some really big artwork, and they care about, you know, funding resources, making it easy to collaborate.

And, you know, they're the, I think of the Sarah Barlins in that case. And the Star trials then have these really important community, uh, connectors. They're often. Newer participants, they've like gone to one or two burns and they're like, oh my gosh, I love this crew. I, I've never seen anything like this. I finally feel accepted.

You know, there's like, uh, um, you know, they're more likely to have, uh, recognized as neuro divergent and they, they've fallen in love [00:32:00] with this sort of authentic belonging. Um, and then finally, uh, oh, not finally, actually there's five, right? There's parent leaders who are the, um, category I'd never really thought about, but it's the, um, parents often have been to many burns before.

They're kind of struggling with how to make this accessible and, uh, really looking for sort of family friendliness, child childcare options and, and sort of things like that. So, yeah, it's, that was a kind of really interesting takeaway for me in terms of preferences. There was a preference. For, uh, really focusing on building a strong New South Wales burner ecosystem, making it accessible to Sydney, to New South Wales based participants.

Um, connecting with interstate burners and drawing people from interstate was important, but nowhere near as important as those. So that was a bit of a, I think a perhaps a refocusing moment. You know, there's, we, for so long last five years at least, looking at having events in Ong and who knows where the next event will be, but [00:33:00] there's, yeah, certainly a desire not to keep driving so many hours just to accommodate Victorians who may or may not attend.

What was the, what were, yeah, any, did you learn from your survey about preferences and times? I think you guys, you probably had more clarity around that than I did, especially for thinking,

Rowan: uh, preferences. For what do you mean? Like site or like location or

Peter: sites? Yeah. Yeah.

Rowan: Um, well look, in my mind when we're talking about site, I think if you look at an eagle eye view, you are looking at the eastern coast of Australia.

With the exclusion of Tasmania, who's, who's got a successful event going at the moment. But if you're looking all up the east coast, you're trying to pick sweet spots for population and travel time and who might attend you. You've, you've got sort of ic five different zones or sites, you know, one is Queensland based, it's probably in the hinterland of, um, gold Coast, Brisbane for the southeast of [00:34:00] Queensland.

Another is in proximity to Sydney, whether it's west of Sydney or in the Central Coast region. And another is in Victoria, probably there in mid sort of Victoria. And then the remaining two, um, a more collective sites, site areas. And one is in a band that runs from out where Ton is and comes in over the Alps, along near the river and to the south coast.

And then the other is Northern, and that's more like Midor Coast and then up onto the New England. So of course the northern one's better for that relationship between Southeast Queensland and Sydney. The other one's better for Sydney to Victoria. Now. It's kind of strange that those, all, those three of those five sites for within New South Wales, I mean, um, so hence this conversation.

But yeah, there are the opportunities and traditionally where we're at Mong, we're in, in the, um, in the, in the, the band for the South. As you go further west, the travel time [00:35:00] increases for everyone. As you get closer to the coast, the travel time decreases for everyone. So yeah, we, we tried to ask theme camps a bit about their sentiment and look, there's, there's so much sentiment for retaining those relationships with, with Victoria, it wasn't split it, I mean, it wasn't unified.

The response on site is really quite split, and I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I can say the majority of sentiment. Is is shifted slightly northwards now. And that's, that's the truth when we're just talking to New South Wales and a CT camps. However, there's still a really strong amount of people that, that it's would prefer to be south too.

But yeah, it's, there's all these other parameters. We're talking about size of events. It's, it's, it's complicated to, can't really. You know, maintain directed answer. But look, my recommendation was that in the short term, we should be considering something that's New South Wales and Sydney centric and that that would accommodate for the majority of respondents [00:36:00] and then see where we go in subsequent years.

But that's my personal recommendation from doing all that. But you can't really pin it down to one, one answer.

Peter: Interestingly, I took the everybody's, we asked everyone their, um, postcode and then used that to work out exactly what was half, what, what was the epicenter of everybody. And it

Stevan: So it was like a heat map.

Peter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did, did a heat map and, um, trying to, so I've got it. The location in front of me, I'm trying to describe. It's near Kang Walls or K near Kang. I dunno if anyone knows that, but it's sort of be just south of Gen Nolan caves. So west of Nata. Uh, it's such a random area actually, but it's sort of, it was um, directly west and slightly south of, um, south of Sydney.

Of Sydney. So if you drove there, it would be three hours to Oberon Drive South near Abria River National Park near, [00:37:00]

um, yeah. That's the center of at least the 520 burners that answered the survey.

Stevan: Yeah. The, the other consideration is the dates now, um, people were, they needed a, either a Ja, a school holiday or, or a public holiday or something warmer or, you know, it's, there's a lot of conditions to meet, you know, burners.

Burners are quite picky.

Peter: Yeah. Oh, fair enough. Um, yeah, that was a very interesting observation too. So the, they really didn't like traveling. They didn't like burning in winter. That was one clear thing. It was like, had the,

Stevan: it's a disappointment, but Yeah. I can see, I can see how it, uh, can affect people.

Peter: Yeah. Um, well, I, I feel them, I mean, was really nice. 'cause I had. But, but yeah, a lot of interest in sort of February to April and from uh, September to November, there was obviously some people wanted, cared a lot about avoiding bushfire [00:38:00] season, so that kind of ruled out the early half of the year, unless it was a location that was definitely kind of okay for bushfire.

So one can imagine near a beach would be fine, but, but if you get rid of that because of peaks bushfire season, then yeah, it suggests that the. September to November would be the peak, the ideal timing. Yeah. Trying, trying to bring up the rest of the, the data.

Stevan: Do you have any opinions, Rowan, with, with the dates?

Rowan: Uh, well look, I, it was good to have personal conversations with people and, um, look, what I learned is that, look, school holidays really are important. There are so many, but parents involved and there were surveys reflected as well. It's not something really asked directly, but it's, it's, it's school holidays important.

'cause parents can leave their kids with a, a, a a relative or something like that, or they may choose to take them. But, um, the, that's, there's a lot of sentiment surrounding that. And traditionally it's something that we've done. The remarkable amount of theme camps have been like, [00:39:00] well, their attitude has been really, we do not care about these other events.

It doesn't need to be tiptoeing about the other events. The burn trumps them all and just go full fraud, all put it into the best date that suits us. And, and that, that's, that's an important assertive consideration. Maybe that's not what happens, but, um, there's certainly a decent amount of people being vocal for that kind of.

Uh, action. Um, uh, October long weekend remains the strongest. However, of course, Easter is another consideration either of those in the shoulder season. The climate's good. Our chances for the burn are probably slightly better on Easter. It's probably slightly more open away from other events. However, there's also a lot of things on then, so there's a possibility there.

Look, I'd, I'd imagine if you could look at this whole thing in 10 years, I would guess that you'd see two annual events. You'd see one in the northern region and one in the southern region, and one would beat Easter and one would be October long weekend. But regarding the bush fires and burns and stuff, it's not just cut and dried.

It's, it's [00:40:00] complicated by relationships with the rural fire service in the area, personal relationships, it's a whole bunch of considerations. It's, it's too hard to really. Quantify. Um, but yeah. Yeah. And the, and it's also about sites. Some sites are more dangerous and some sites are less dangerous. So that's, that's another consideration right there and probably another conversation.

Peter: Yeah. And with, it's a long weekends for me personally, I don't have kids, but like I organize my trips around long weekends. Like I work hard between long weekends. Play hard on the long weekends and my brain has adapted to that cycle. So it's like, I think it's, it's respectful of people's time to have it on a long weekend.

Rowan: I think when I said that, you know, what those most popular, um, times were then and what theme camps registered, like I'm speaking broadly about perhaps majority, but look, a lot of camps, uh, certainly look, if something comes up and it's unified, they'll pull out all the [00:41:00] stops. There'll be a lot of attendances still, even if it isn't a long weekend and people are prepared to travel just about anywhere for a unified event, um, with enough lead in time, it can't be too short.

You know, these things need planning, but yeah. And, and, and there's also, look, if, if it was, say, an October event and we tried to burn and we weren't able to. It would still be a success in their opinion, just to get us back together and, um, and get, and get something happening that gets everyone unified.

But I think, I think we're looking good. There's enough lead in time. We've got the right leadership in place now. Everyone's talking. Um, it's, it's all positive. So, um, yeah.

Peter: Yeah. So it was like 50% had a preference for Labor Day. Labor Day was the most popular weekend for the burn. Um, Easter was then the next most popular, uh, Australia Day was the third most popular, and King's birthday was like the least popular.

In the survey we asked like, what's the. Or, you know, are you available on, on, [00:42:00] on this date?

Stevan: Yeah. We might also wanna clarify that it's, it's a New South Wales calendar. So Labor Day is in October, King's birthday is in May. I think it is June. Mm. Yeah. But let's talk about also how, if we can't burn, what are, what are people's opinions and sentiments there?

If we can't burn, what can we do? So the whole, I guess the ritual, the ceremony and the burn itself and what it means and what, what's the intentions there? And, you know, we can't do it. Does that open ideas and situations for, for our community?

Rowan: Well, I think the alternative, yeah. Look, the alternative is everyone would still expect to see a ceremony.

You know, we come together in a circle as multiple communities, and that's really powerful. And how to do our best possible to still bring everyone together in that circle and, and share that time. Um, and there's a variety of ways. It could be, uh, through a collaborative artwork or some sort of artwork, there could be.

Um, elements like a, a drone show. There's, [00:43:00] there's a bunch of different concepts, but you'd hope that we'd still be able to introduce some kind of fire into that, um, of the people like the fire tribe and the collective performance and maybe tickle the edges there or, or something smaller. But I think overall people would prefer not to plan an event that's planned around that, that is our, our plan B or our backup plan.

If, if, if we're unable to get a permit,

Stevan: can we not come together in a circle? Maybe it sounds too

cultish, maybe like an a isosceles triangle probably perhaps.

Rowan: Uh, yeah. Well, we need three strong leaders to enable that, that to happen, but

Stevan: yeah. So what, what did you find in, in your surveys in, in regards to people's sentiments with the actual burning of the effigy and the temple?

Peter: Yeah. Uh, so, um, what was interesting, thus I bring up the actual results that are in front me. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was like, what was cool was that there was a large [00:44:00] number of people, I think, I can't remember the numbers, 20 or 40%. So it was very important that we have the burn. Uh, and so it was, it was very important to a lot of surprisingly large number of people.

Um, a lot of people said that we shouldn't, like, it's fine to, like if we, you know, don't stop. I think as Rowan said, don't you know, don't cancel an event just 'cause we can't have a burn. But it's like really important. And one, I did a brief little analysis where I looked at the different, 'cause we looked at the different ways people contribute, like whether they're event organizers or team leads or et cetera.

And what was interesting was that the event organizers had like a three times more likely to say it was very important to have a burn. So I think, you know, if, if someone's sort of new to the scene, perhaps they don't quite get the ceremonial elements or whatnot. But most importantly I think there's something very, um.

Symbolic of the burn to the event organizers and that it's like, it's the sort of pinnacle, it's the, like, it's [00:45:00] the representation of the temporary city, right? It's like this, this beautiful element that we've like, come here, we've done this big thing and we've dis disassembled it and left, uh, this temporary city and there's, and the maximum, and then nothing represents the, the scale of that temporary city, then this large wooden effigy.

Um, and then, which is then burnt. So, yeah, I think it's, it has a really key ceremonial purpose. Uh, or, and, and just, you know. Purpose generally. It was also interesting. I mean, I've been reflecting a lot on what, what its purpose is, you know, and, you know, I think it's one thing for me is that when you're out socializing nonstop, like you are on the paddock, it's really hard to like just stop and decompress and having this moment to all just sit down in the warmth and have a brain break, have a, like, just decompress between your day of socializing and your night of further socializing.

So yeah, it's, yeah, pretty important thing. I didn't quite [00:46:00] understand it. I, I always knew it was kind of important 'cause I knew I'd get in trouble from Rowan if I didn't, if I didn't show. But, um, I now kind of get why it's so important.

Stevan: Yeah, it's, IM important but not essential is also the way how I read the results.

Um, so in, in, in that way, I mean, I mean, people also said that the essence of the burn for them is the connection, the celebration. And, you know, the humanity of, of what we do, I guess. Um, that's, that's what they, they come back for. It's, it's, well, that's what they get to the burn for. Not particularly an effigy or, or a temple, but it's important for that to be there.

Yeah. I think the, the, also, the bottom line from what I understand is that we're trying to prioritize the community participation, uh, building over entertainment consumption. Right. So it's not just about the, the, the lasers and the, and the do and the, you know, yeah. And the swag and stuff like that. It is about coming together and building a better [00:47:00] society.

Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I, I've, and to your point, Steve, the, we asked everybody what, you know, what brings you, what motivates you to participate at burner events. And this was really beautiful. You know, 76 people, percent of people said that community and connection were the primary motivators. Or not. Yeah. Uh, or referenced that theme, 62% of people, uh, had self-expression and cre you know, mentioned self-expression and creativity.

Almost 50% talked about transformative art and music. About 40% alluded to escaping the default world. Um, and, and a whole bunch of different other, other things. But yeah, we're really, it's not, we're not here to, you know, punch cones and listen to EDM, even though that's, you know, my favorite thing to do. But there's, at the end of the day that yeah, we are building really beautiful communities in usually unique ways.

Stevan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is, yeah. Uh, that, that, that was [00:48:00] the, the, the great takeaway from that is, is the collective vision, the capabilities that we have, the community spirit, and we're not just building something for mass consumption. We're building something for, for, for, for everybody else to, uh, to enjoy, uh, participating.

Peter: Yeah, for sure. It really is a participatory experience.

Stevan: Okay. So the accessibility needs also was also touched on.

Peter: Yeah. Yeah, that was a very interesting area. So we asked, um, about, uh, neurodivergence as, as we discussed earlier, um, we found out that 60, 80% of those do you identify as neurodivergent, had a DHD.

And 36% said they had, uh, autism. Uh, and then we asked like, what do you need? Like, what support do you need? And the answers to that were quite interesting too. So we also asked about, uh, accessibility. So I'm stalling here as you might be able to tell. Um, because my memory is not, so we asked in terms of [00:49:00] neurodivergence what sort of support or you need and, and uh, the most common answer was sound separation.

They didn't like noise bleed. And it's funny, I only included this wasn't, I mentioned I added this 'cause my partner always complained about how annoying it was, which is then you have two sound, two sound stages close enough to each other that you can like, hear each other's music and it just can be quite overwhelming.

Stevan: So we're an aging community going deaf?

Peter: Yeah, well, all we have like auditory filtering problems like, um, I certainly do like there's a, some large number. 20% of people said they needed quiet sensory zones, which makes me really appreciate the importance of like those cuddle spaces and chill out spaces. Um, there's a strong need for clear information, signage, making it really like people know what's going on where.

And, uh, surprisingly nu number of people wanting support with social interactions, which I don't, uh, I guess maybe like badges and things is a cool, cool thing to do there [00:50:00] anyway, in terms of physical accessibility, there was also, um, a lot less, uh, people reporting that they had needs around that. But people did report needs with like stamina and fatigue, um, chronic health issues, mobility issues, other, um, and yeah, so I think that I, uh, points to the importance of accessible design of these events and, uh, you know, ensuring everything is a DH ADHD friendly from the start.

Yeah.

Stevan: Alright, so let's, let's take a, let's take another break and I'm not quite sure how to help you with that. Well, we'll be right back. Um, let's, okay, let's take a break. We right back.

Ranger Tarzan: Hello, this is Ranger Tarzan of Blazing Swan, sending my love as I drive around the country up in Darwin. Also, wanna send my love to all my camp baits at Camp Koasis and the big BlackRock City Bureau of Misinformation and BlackRock City Hash House Harriers.

Stevan: All [00:51:00] right, welcome back. Okay, Roland, um, your survey was very interesting. Um, I read through that, thanks for sending it over. Um, but before we do that, let's get your background story on how you got into the burn community. 'cause um, I'd like to introduce, you know, the two community as well. So what's your story?

How'd you get involved?

Rowan: Uh, look, the first burn for me was 2015. Um, look, I'd previously been involved in some commercial festivals at a production level. Um. Mainly prior to that Petes Ridge Festival, which was live music focused, and that's hosted in Glenworth Valley and that was a, an event each, um, new Year's Eve and, and the days preceding that.

So, um, that was a lot of passion there and I'd probably spend about three weeks a year camping in that valley. It was a great experience. When that festival ended, I was sort of left hanging and um, I tried Falls Festival. I found all the rubbish left behind. Disappointing and also the commercialization of it.

Uh, they didn't even have beautiful lights on gum [00:52:00] trees. I couldn't handle it. Um, uh, I went back to Glenworth Valley, the festival that following that lost paradise and gave them a year. Um, but yeah, I found it a bit disappointing, the transition. And then, uh, I'd been out to confess with a friend and had a great experience there.

Uh, I joined a camper. People really sort of awakened me in, in, in all the principles are very similar between confess and burning seed. And on the back of that great experience, just wanted to connect with those people again and burning seed was coming up. So we went, let's get everyone together in a camp and, um, head down there.

And I was one of the drivers for that. And we formed the music Medicine Magic theme camp. Um, it was a lot of drumming, especially on, on the big effigy night. Probably about 80 drummers got together then for the peak time. Um, uh, I. At that time needed to work out a water supply for the camp. Um, we're putting a kitchen together and that was difficult.

Um, so I got in contact with Johnny [00:53:00] Brightwell from Trash Mansion. He'd be doing a little splash mansion out the back 'cause he just wanted to have a shower and, um, he helped him with a water supply. But we realized that everyone needed. That. Um, so we, we together formed a not-for-profit organization called The Watershed Collective.

Um, and many theme camps, theme camp leaders participated in hosting, forming that organization. And collectively, we, we, we managed to supply ourselves with water. Uh, and that was in a partnership with local farmers. And, um, it was really great that all the money they received through that partnership, they gave back to their own local community in the schools, the education local pool.

So that was very successful. And because I was doing that with Johnny, we ended up camping together and that was splash and, um, we had, we had a great time. Uh, and uh, yeah, now I'm camping with the peachy, uh, peachy crew, um, along the way. Um, I've supported the volunteering, uh, [00:54:00] with the theme camp team in the past.

Um, although I haven't attended since 2019.

Stevan: Yeah. Peachy was, uh, involved in the Maverick Burn as well.

Rowan: Yeah, yeah. Peachy attended Maverick. Um, I guess the formation of that organization, um, looked Sunset Town, peachy, spice Cadets, I guess were three camps that were sort of key in instrumental in the creation of that.

But, uh, you know, there was, there was uh, probably about a dozen theme camps. Involved in that event.

Stevan: Yeah. You also helped out immensely with Maverick, the Maverick Burns. So, uh, well done. Um, what did you learn from that experience?

Rowan: Uh, look, we were trying to collectively demonstrate that look, if theme camps needed to get, get it together ourselves and create something, we could do that and also be able to step up and fill the necessary crew roles.

So it wasn't a barrier. We want to show that it wasn't that hard to create a not-for-profit organization and to have a democratic organization. It doesn't necessarily take 10 years. You can do it in just a few weeks if you really put your mind to it [00:55:00] and we prove that. Um, and so that was a good feeling and a good feeling for empowerment.

Uh, and, you know, we were ready to do that again if necessary.

Stevan: Yeah. So this is quite, um, I guess a good segue into your survey with, with theme camps, how, how heavily you, you are involved and how much you, you love that side of the, the, the burn aspect is the theme camps participation. What was the thinking behind, you know, trying to get, I guess, some kind of consensus or some kind of data of the community, especially New South Wales community?

Rowan: Well, this talking between theme camps, um, that's, that's a regular thing for someone on a theme camp theme to do. It's an annual sort of thing. Checking in personally, you know, having a good chat, having a catch up, and also finding out what people are planning, where the community's at, what's suiting. So, yeah, that's all part of it really.

Uh, so it was an opportunity to do that. Again, it's, so I enjoy, uh, it takes a lot of hours on the phone, just like everyone putting in all these hours across different things. Uh, but that's what we do. There's been a bit of, um, a break in continuity [00:56:00] since, since 2019 attempts, you know, there's been COVID, there's been a whole bunch of, uh, issues, the governance issues and so yeah, it's, it's been, it's been difficult.

Um, so yeah, this is a check in for me 'cause I haven't been that involved at a crew level to, um, check in and use that. I guess personal relationships have built up the experience and then,

Stevan: so yeah, you actually, you, you're personally message, oh, sorry, you're personally calling people, you're having conversations.

Rowan: I've had interviews just like you are having with me across all, all the, all the respondents and some of those we've chatted for even a couple of hours. So yeah. And then try to help collate that data in a way that I can relate it a little bit to. Uh, helpful to the leaders that, uh, uh, are here now, like the sunburnt arts people, but also that was provided to the regional contacts, uh, uh, as well as yourself.

So yeah, that's, that's how that all came about. Look, there's other people that have been dealing with theme camps, uh, like Tally and the crew with Burning Seed 2023 got [00:57:00] those relationships and, and others, and the third degree people. So we've tried to sort of connect all that and opportunity, but there's only so many conversations I could literally have.

So I haven't, didn't get around to everyone. We've only covered. You know, uh, maybe 60% of the estimated population.

Stevan: Yeah, that's, that's quite a powerful methodology that you had to actually talk to them directly, understanding who they are and what they're doing. So, uh, well done. Um, let's talk about some of the, the stuff that you've, some of the insights that you gathered as well, that you can share with us.

Rowan: Okay. So, look, the fundamental one is, is a head count as a census. We're trying to identify. Look, what is the estimated amount of people through theme camps that would hope to event, uh, attend an event in 2026, assuming it's an ideal date and location. Look, we're just talking to people within New South Wales and a CD for this.

Not to say that camps from Queensland or Victoria wouldn't come, or hopefully they will come, but that was just our, our limitation there. So, um, [00:58:00] look, the estimate is approximate 38, uh, anticipated to register in 2026. Um, for reference burning seed at its heyday 20 20 19, it's probably about 70 camps. So you know that, that seems on par.

Um, I mostly engaged with the older or larger camps. Um, out of all the interviews, the headcount there was 690 active active participants. Um, but when we look at it broadly across all the camps, including the ones I didn't get around to chat to personally, uh, like that headcount estimate is, uh, 980 participants in New South Wales and a CT for 2026.

Now those census that we used to have, um, from bubbles Amelia revealed over the years that generally the, the attendance at the, the large burn, the burning seed, about half to slightly more than half would be theme camp participants, and the remainder would be, uh, general gifters crew and artists. Yeah. Um, now the look, a couple of other questions we asked that were unique to [00:59:00] this rather than the broader community survey, the IBAG survey, we did ask a bit about governance.

We're asking camps, look, their experience, how many burns they got in the bag, what their chances are of attending, what the size of the camp would be. That's the headcount, but also a couple of policy questions about economic policy and. Whether there should be, uh, tiered ticketing prices for crew, whether some crew should be getting a cheaper ticket if they've done more work, and also the potential paying crew.

'cause that's been a contentious thing in the past, um, on the back of 2019, those conversations. So that was a bit of insight there. Uh, also ta talking about ticket price for artisan crew versus general participants. Should there be tiering there? Uh, and also grants. Should the grants be low, should there be medium?

Should it be high? What's the grants process? We asked about dates, the long weekend versus regular dates, the seasonal dates, um, the burn policy, what the importance of [01:00:00] having a burn. What should we do if we don't have one? We asked about the geographical preferences, um, you know, whether it's North, south Sydney centric travel times the ideal size of a burn in general, but also what is their recommendation for the size of a burn, uh, next year, you know, uh, and at many camps there are saying, well, it should be capped to ensure scarcity of ticking supply.

And that it's, it's not that big. And the number we are looking at there is about 1500 people. Uh, also just some comments on, on governance, you know, and we're hearing things like some people saying, look, too much bureaucracy. It's like a self licking ice cream. Do you want me,

Peter: I don't get that, but I like it.

Rowan: Do you want me to, uh, hone in on any of those particular elements, Steve?

Stevan: Yeah, sure. Go. Yeah, go for it.

Peter: Yeah. Answer all of them. Well

raise the questions

then not answer them.

Stevan: Yeah. You did a great, um, great job there. So yeah, let's, let's talk more about it.

Rowan: It's tough [01:01:00] because this is a compilation of individual interviews and that data's there.

And I would encourage anyone who's in the leadership, particularly SBA, to look at that and be able to contact those team, get people directly. 'cause they're, they're also, it is difficult for them 'cause they're trying to represent their own community. So there's so many layers here. Um, but you have those conversations.

Um, I've tried to summarize a little bit, but I can't speak for everyone. And like, like Peter was saying with the burn sentiment, there's certainly not in the majority, but there's, there's a minority that are strongly feel in different ways, you know, and there's, there's, there's, there's certain camps that are like, oh, look at burn as a deal breaker.

And so that's, that's fair enough. Look, I'd say with the event name burning seed, um, mm-hmm. Look, some, some are looking at it, it's, it's a drag. It's, it's a negative. But overall, people are realizing too many changes in decisions at the moment. Let's just go with what's worked well in the past and just try not to overly change things and just get something happening.

However, [01:02:00] probably that should be a review shortly open to the community. And then let's look at perhaps changing that.

Stevan: Yeah. There, there are some sentiments out there. Uh, with, with the whole, I guess the whole image, the whole, um, social, social capital of the branding. Um, it's, it's, it's becoming bearish a little bit.

Um, it wasn't as bullish as, I guess at its peak in 20 18, 20 19. Yeah. People are, are, are just reconsidering of, of how value in terms of the changes. What, what we can sort of, sort of get out of it, you know, like which direction should we go?

Rowan: Yeah. Yep. Um, look with the location and site look, it's clear that Ong is now, I would say very unpopular with many camps.

They're openly expressing a strong language relating to dislike or disdain for that site. The, despite it's the distance. Yeah. Despite a good experience, it's not just a distance. The site has a wet weather failure risk of over 15%. Mm-hmm. So up to 20%. So for a camp that a community has spent [01:03:00] all year preparing and, and is fully on the launchpad, uh, after even 2016, it probably should have been scrapped then, you know, but we're still in that, that cycle.

And it's not to say that that locational region is an ideal for a variety of reasons, but the site itself that the weather, uh, is problematic. And even if it's not extreme and the event get canceled, it begins to introduce more costs for the event as we've also seen. Yes. So that's something that needs considering and it's something that the theme camps have spoken about, open openly.

Um, the distance is, is a thing, but, you know, look, it's, it's fair if, if it's, if it's between Victorian and, and New South Wales. However, we could, we can prove on that by moving the site. Most camps, however, they would certainly consider Mong for a larger unified event, but certainly not all, all camps, uh, of that, of that.

So, um, look, the sentiments, it's shifting towards the Norwood zone, like away from that Victorian Sydney zone to more Sydney, Southeast Queensland, Northern river zone. But [01:04:00] that's for the majority, but the substantial going the other way. So you can't really, it's split. Um, look, camps are experienced in the third degree.

They really like the location around Sydney. They love the size, but they're not happy with the site. The limitations of the site and the centralized layout focus of it. So look in summary for site, you know, both burning seed of third degree could consider site changes or maybe just, you know, just amalgamating.

Uh, look, the, the da

Stevan: Yeah. Just back to the, back to the UNG site. Yeah. The, the, the, I guess the history or the background of that is that the, the location was ideal because it's, it was be between Sydney and Melbourne. Yeah. But with, um, Commonwealth Victoria. Uh, doing their own events. That's not part of the equation anymore really.

It's not part of the conversation anymore. So, yeah, going to Mong doesn't make sense in that regard. Yeah. So, yeah,

Rowan: well look, yeah. Okay. There's, there's five areas I see. Uh, one is. [01:05:00] Melbourne Centric one, Sydney Centric one's Brisbane, gold Coast Centric. And then you've got the Southern Zone, which is in between ci uh, uh, Victoria and New South Wales.

You get the Northern Zone, which is in between New South Wales and, and Queensland. Um, and look, I don't know what's gonna happen, but it's potential that you see seed and and third degree on a collision course regarding dates and and zone. Um, there's, there's a variety of different considerations for leaders to make, but look, theme camps broadly, look, they're ready to support anything.

They just wanna see, you know, a unified burn. Um, but, but you know, under understand the trickiness. Um, long weekends preferred yet, yet, most camps, they're prepared for a regular weekend if they have to, if it's gonna be unified event, look, the distance. Is is a balance consideration. Look, there's that seasonal preference for spring autumn to avoid the temperature extremes.

And some camps, they don't want it to be too [01:06:00] close to the big burn 'cause that's something that they're participating in as well. Uh, and mostly everyone wants to avoid conflicts through other events. Yet look, this is substantial segment of camps that they encourage a no sympathy approach for alternative events.

Placement on our best preferred dates and our largest regional burn and everyone can get on board with that. School holidays are an absolute winner. And look tra slightly traditional. October long weekend remains the most popular. Easter is less popular because there's so much else always happening, but.

Um, the camps also recognized the true lead in time required from, from crew development for the burn, but also the theme camp fundraising. And for 2026, look at FA Spring. But you know, if, if we can really get, get happening, it's possible that it could, could be something else. We talked about the fire versus the ceremony.

I think we've already touched on that really

Peter: actually. Just on site. Uh, I wanna tell Steve a story, which is when. When the survey was ongoing, I [01:07:00] got distracted a little bit and kept thinking about, oh, we have to solve a site. It was clear with and trying to rollie that like the only way that they could organize another event is if they could find a site that was scalable.

And so I got right into this problem. Right. You know, I knew the survey was gonna survey everybody and we asked everyone for recommendations about sites, but I also thought I wanna take a data-driven approach to this. Uh, so I wrote a script where I pulled every property in New South Wales from state government websites, uh, from state government sources, modeled the perimeter of those properties, worked out, um, some based off some requirements Rowan gave me, like, has to be five kilometers from it.

Nearest place has to be in a valley. It needs water access and all these things. Created a a, um, effectively a, a web app that, um, allows you to identify all of the sites. And even then, uh, neither the survey results found an alternative site, nor my data-driven approach using government data could find a good site.

But Rowan found a site in his discussions, which he has [01:08:00] shared secret, I believe, uh, with. Actually, it's not secret. Uh, I dunno how secret it's, but anyway, um, found a site that I think has got everybody excited that meets all the requirements and that was visited last week by, um, SBA leadership and, uh, is looking very promising.

So I'm very excited about the site too. It's perfect. And it was, that was, uh, like very, we are very lucky that Rowan found the site.

Rowan: Uh, I wouldn't say I, I've found this, um, it's just know part of your, this whole collective discussion, awakening the survey itself. People have begun talking, people have become sharing emails, sharing data, and getting it motivated.

And people have also started thinking, seeing how they could contribute to crew roles. So we've broken through the old barriers of us and them, and I think everyone's on the same wave. So that's how that, that site info came about. But I wanna echo what Gabe, I heard him say yesterday, um, at the A GM, just any decisions that they [01:09:00] make, which would be him, Peter, and others.

They're not gonna be taken lightly. Um, it's not an easy decision and, and anything is not gonna suit everyone. But if there is a site change for next year, it doesn't mean that that will be a site that lasts longer than a year or two, or who knows? You know, it's just about, um, trying to, trying to make the best fit and get a successful event happening so I don't envy them those decisions.

That's one reason why I've chosen not to put my hand up for leadership. Uh, I'm really grateful for the people that have, but it's not gonna be easy. But the end all is that there are other site options available, and some of them are really good and, uh, we're in a huge country, so, yeah.

Peter: Yeah. I, I don't, I think, I don't think so.

I think that there is very, there's next to no sites, and that's the thing that surprised me the most of this. When I started all this stuff, I was like, you know, surely it's just a matter of, there must be heaps of sites and it will be my, when I went into it, I was like. There's gonna be so many sites we should like, [01:10:00] um, make it a thing where we like go different sites every year.

But in all of that, you know, I've, through, through, um, our discussions, Rowan, through the survey, through my little app, I've literally looked at probably close to a hundred sites and feel like I've, you know, at least reviewed every possible site and was shocked that there's only been a short list of like, really two sites that are like, you know, worth discussing.

Rowan: I think we're still scratching the surface though, I think Yeah, true. That, but this, this search and this discussion could be ongoing thing, you know, there's no need to, to just stop and start. Um, I think that more people can keep adding these opportunities, just the, the better.

Peter: Yeah, of course, of course.

Rowan: For us ongoing,

and it doesn't mean we need to take all those options, but yeah. Yeah,

Peter: it shockingly flu and I think, I think it's because I haven't quite worked it out, but I think it's something unique to do with our geography. There's something interesting going, I haven't put my finger on yet. That means that there's like, like maybe it's, [01:11:00] I don't, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. Like maybe we are really, um, it's very common to have houses close together or, or bush or something. But like, yeah, like I feel like I've scoured every private property that meets the requirements and there's only like, yeah, two or three.

Stevan: We do have a lot of land. We do have a lot of property in Australia, but just,

Peter: yeah. But then why there's so few that are appropriate sites for burns. Like I, I kid you not, I've literally, you know, spent hours looking on a map of every potential site that meets the requirements and be like, no, that doesn't work. That doesn't work. That doesn't work.

Rowan: We've, we've got a couple of good leads.

Um, there's, there, there's really good leads. Some good leads, and there's things that, you know, look, there's, there's a great one I'm working on that hasn't been pitched yet, but, um, and there's still anything's possible. But look, you know, at this stage, at this moment, probably Ong remains the best we have.

But if we can line that up next to another one, and look, we're looking, they're gonna be looking at things like the costs of doing things, the cost of hiring things as well as variety of metrics, and also the chance to have a burn safely. And Ong is a state forest, you know, [01:12:00] it is full of forest. That's just a fact.

Um, so it's not that we don't go there again, but they, all these things they're gonna need to consider and, and then you weigh them up on, on, on the merits. Uh, and I think if we do end up again in the future, or we, we seek to retain and maintain a collaborative. Shared New South Wales Victorian event.

There's probably a better site than we're told in that region, um, that we, we could end up, end up on. Um, anyway, look, I'm keen to just head to talk just briefly about the, the, the camp ticks and grants and the financial policy. 'cause that's something that

wasn't touched on in the I bag. And it's, I guess it's more specific to people that are more internal on that kind of crew or theme camp, um, kind of thing.

So we're asking people about crew ticks being subsidized. 'cause in the past at Burning Air that has happened with people who doing year round roles [01:13:00] or they are on site for an extended period of time, might have had access to a more affordable ticket. I'm also asking about paying, paying crew. Um. 'cause Yeah, if, if, if my mind served me right, our very first democratic experience with burning seed, the administration was quite Victorian heavy and doing a great job.

And then there an election was launched and a bunch of it was an election to hand over burning seed to democracy. Basically. It was our first attempt at that and a lot of the candidates with Victorians there, also some New South Wales people. And that election happened and it was successful and not, I voted on it.

I dunno who got to and who didn't. It was, seemed like a bit of a difficult process, but it happened. Uh, and then a bunch of people were elected, a lot of who'd been existing crew. Um, and then shortly afterwards it ended in a coup, uh, and they all walked away and they were the Victorians. So we were left with what we have, and then the whole thing fell over.

[01:14:00] But that's, that's my, like, recollection of what happened. And it was never really addressed that failure. But they were sort of called out as the hearsay was that those newly elected people were favoring payments for crew. And then that was the sticking point between them and the directors or, or, and the directors just sort of just dump, dumped the whole democracy thing at that, that moment.

Following that, what happened was the, the remaining New South Wales people in a paranoid way, what they did was they fired all the volunteers. They took their email addresses away and they stopped giving them access to the drive. Then they tried to recreate things and then that was what you see has been unsuccessful and we a huge financial loss.

So it, that's my little summary from my angle of seeing what happened. But part of all that was conversations about paying crew. Um, so look from theme camps, there's generally a reluctance to pay crew, yet there's an acceptance that if necessary, some crew might be subsidized, like they're already [01:15:00] contributing and volunteering, especially in a larger event.

And they're ideally that they're embedded passionate volunteers to begin with. But some camps or camp leaders have a, like a strict no, and there's a considerable sentiment. About paying crew, and it's mainly based around a fear of commodifying or loss of culture rather than wasteful spending on crew.

And people are suggesting that. We could find the value is added elsewhere, such as leadership training, improving the efficiency of our administration or our talent and accruing department. And people have said, look, if time's money, then perhaps save crew time by avoiding wasteful communications and inefficient internal processes.

So, um, yeah, just wanna say paid crew have very well-defined goals and measurable targets and not year round roles. And there's a risk that volunteers would feel less motivated and devalued if they're working alongside paid crew. Um, so preferring the crew, being encouraged for a discounted ticks, if anything.

Yet, if they do, it should [01:16:00] be a pretty modest discount. And it's for specific criteria. It's more like a token of appreciation rather than true compensation for the hours that get worked. So everyone's gifting so much. Yeah. Do you guys have any thoughts on that or, yeah,

Peter: I, my only thoughts on that are. The, I think, I guess to a certain point in scale, like if you get to, like looking at the org chart from, um, Western Australian Burn, they've got a, I think a year round event producer that's hired, plus a few other hired positions.

So I can imagine, uh, when it gets to like over 3000 people, it kind of make, makes it much more scale sustainable to hire out some of those repetitive, easy to do roles and I

Rowan: perhaps sustainable in terms of finance, but like camps are registering that, that's not their main consideration. Uh, and we were doing, we were doing 5,000 Peter, we were doing almost double the size of Blaze with no paid crew, and you were seeing elements such as burnout and so yeah, it's, [01:17:00] it's something to be talked through, but at this stage, going into 20, 26 camps are just like, you know, don't even, don't even think about it.

Peter: Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I can, yeah. My point was that. I can imagine there being a point sometime down the future where it become, and the, the type of person I would wanna, hi, we, I'd wanna hire of course, is the someone who, who's deeply passionate about something like AV and is gonna bring a whole bunch of a Gear V gear and it would make sense to, to subsidize them to do it like in a professional way than to go out to market and go,

Rowan: I think camps are asking for Yeah.

Like those people that are already embedded rather than, there's a fear, you know, some event manager comes in and they've got all this big event thing that just doesn't meet, meet the culture. Um, but anyway, so there, that was, that was something that was talked about, which was a good conversation to have.

Um, uh, another one was the camp Ticks and grants. Okay. So previously in the past, burning Seed has had. Uh, no tiering, um, between think [01:18:00] camps and artists and general participants. And, um, and it has, uh, had fairly low, low grants overall, and that's, that's it led to a low ticket price. Um, then we saw a bit of a departure from that, uh, in the, in the, in the last couple of events.

So it was just a rehash asked war more. Most of the campuses spoke to older, but you know, just what they thought about that. Um, and the reveal is that, look. There's an overwhelming assumption that directed tickets to camps is potentially with an expiry that's the best method of building sales and supporting camps.

And, you know, we've done that at things like Maverick Burn and I'm sure you know, Underland third degree, doing things like that as well. The, the camps mostly prefer no tiering of ticks for camps as so general. So mostly saying, can we just have everyone on the same tier? That's the best way of meeting the principles.

And it, it allows camps to truly gift rather than being subsidized to gift. There's some camps, a minority that view a [01:19:00] benefit, maybe a bit of minimal tiering as an incentive way to lubricate the system and assist them to sell. Tickets within the camp quicker with the grants. Camps are favoring a, a, a process of application, and that's what the theme camp does.

Normally they receive those applications, but the amount that's given preferred to be overwhelmingly low. So it's in line with traditional burning seed rather than blazing Swan or more like third degree currently. And, but in 2026, those grants should be paid in year one rather than a delay of a year, which has been a thing in the past.

Benefits of Giving Camps grants is it helps, um, them leaving No trace is something that they do. Um, it's also maybe getting on board with things like the sound policy and stuff like that. So a bit of incentive to camps, not to be renegades, but in summary camps preferring an overall low ticket price for the event and a minimal subsidy.

Uh, and that enables, uh, more support for general participants and a low overall ticket price.

Peter: Yeah. Uh, I [01:20:00] love all of that and agree with all of that. Um, interestingly, I've been thinking about ticket prices in recently and think there's also, separate to what you're saying, Rowan is, uh, worth including, um, low income tickets.

And something that we haven't done, uh, which I think is interesting is like patron tickets. So some other larger burns have more expensive tickets that you can get. If you've just, if you've, if you can afford it, and, uh, they just subsidize,

Stevan: it's a way of giving back to the community.

Peter: Yeah. I, I don't think we've ever explored that, but I'd love to to pilot that once.

Um, see if you can get patron tickets. And another thing I'm really interested in exploring at the moment is community.

Rowan: Yeah. Ca camps have agreed with you as well, Peter. Definitely the sentiment people, they've been saying we'd rather see low income tickets given. Than expanded subsidies for ourselves.

And you'd almost think camps would be like, just give us some money. Ask, give us some money. But that's not the case. They, they care about the culture. They see what makes a successful event. These are the seasoned communities. They're confident in their own fundraising abilities. They love gifting. They wanna see people there receiving that gift, getting their minds blown, more inclusion, more [01:21:00] people attending and, and getting to share that artists is slightly different matter because artists are often a small collective.

They've got high overhead costs, they've got a lot of logistics issues, uh, and the build. So they really do need funding to be able to deliver that. But there is also ways that we can do that, that aren't necessarily straight cash handouts. There might be like more shared logistics and trucks and, and warehousing and, and, and design spaces and things that we can look at in the future.

Peter: Yeah, definitely. Awesome.

Rowan: But yeah, look, I think I've sort of touched on it there. That was the fiscal stuff was one thing. We, we talked about the site overall, the event size. Um, the consensus seems to be settling on a cap that's somewhere between 12 and 1600 people. That's enabling all the theme camp participants to attend at one.

Oh, it's not then saying you can can't come, but you are not invited. 'cause anyone that has a smaller event than that, that is the reality. They have to say, invite some theme camps but not invite artists. And people keep dodging around that pretending it's not happening. But the result is you've got this theme camp sitting idle, not [01:22:00] attending, or just hosting their own events.

That's okay. It's been beautiful in a lot of ways, but if we wanna get together and be inclusive. You've gotta really look at how many people wanna actually come. And then beyond that, we do need to have space for crew artists specific and also hopefully just really include some general people that wanna experience a burn for the first time.

So, uh, yeah, maybe a 12, 1600 or somewhere less than 2000 cap. Uh, and aim to sell those tickets out well ahead of the event. I think that's pretty much it. The comments we ask 1200 people. Yeah. Great. Well, it's, it's not, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's not, look. You know, burning seed would probably had subscription of like, up to seven or 8,000 people wanting to attend, but those people wouldn't because the event will have been sold out.

So, yeah.

Stevan: Mm. Okay. So what's your, what's your thoughts, what's your thoughts on the price elasticity or the price elasticity of putting, putting a number on the ticket? So, for example, looking like you, you're saying looking any, any, anywhere above two 50 seems like, um, you're pricing [01:23:00] a lot of people out.

Anything below is, is, I guess under 200 is, will be perceived as good value. So I guess what Seed did earlier this year was pricing at over 300. Considering all the costs or the inflation that's going around, how do you find price sensitivity of ticketing?

Rowan: Uh, I found that, uh, the theme camp, prevailing theme camp sentiment was a little bit shocked at that move.

Um, but Okay. Letting it be

Stevan: Would, would it be different for, for, sorry. Would it be different for theme camp participants? Then to a regular burner who not involved in much, but is able to volunteer as well. Is, is it, I I would say with theme camps you might even get more help. So you're not, you, you, you can probably pay a bit more.

I guess I'm not, this is just my understanding, my assessment anyway. 'cause you have that shared resources, maybe. I'm not sure.

Rowan: Look, camps are gonna be pre, they're gonna be putting in money, um, whether individuals as we call Camp Jews or via their fundraising, but often they're gonna be contributing anywhere [01:24:00] up to $200 each on top of their ticket in order to gift to these other people.

So that's where you start going up to tier or not to tier. Um, for people that is, is going to a festival, maybe they're like, oh, that's a pretty good deal. I'm gonna get free boo. But um, yeah, the, the amount of the tickets, it didn't go down well. Um, I can say that, yeah, that's clear from these, these, these discussions.

But it's not just that they didn't go down. What's the discussion? Uh, the, the information about where that money's going. So what some camps have asked for, uh, and I've relayed that, is that next time when tickets are released, there is a budget breakdown of where that money's going. So you can see, okay, the organization's saving this much.

That's cool, giving this much of this department, that much of that department. But then camps are asking to see that before they offer tickets to their own members because many of their own members are of, are also event where, where it's a wash with event organizations, organizers and hosts, you know, and there's often subgroups coming together in a larger group.

They're quite used to running events, [01:25:00] quite used to financial structure events. So just want to be open and transparent.

Stevan: Yeah. So giving some kind of a, like a, like a pie graph illustration of.

Rowan: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Stevan: Where all this money's going and how it's spent and how it, the val, the value

propositions.

Rowan: Exactly. That all these things should be on the website and don't pretend it's like, oh, us and them and there, this happy Mary, and we're promoting this. Just get down to the nitty gritty. Have it there. Um, yeah, we're pretty, pretty seasoned bunch as Peter's, um, broadcast through this survey. Really?

Stevan: Yeah. So yeah.

A a lot of interesting, uh, things that's, that's been brought to attention brought forward here with all these surveys you guys doing with Roland. With Roland, with Peter. Fantastic work guys. Now shall we talk a little bit about your, um, leadership, Peter, your, your new role. Sure. SBA leadership. Yeah. Now you, you, you applied for a candidacy and congratulations, you received it.

Well done.

Peter: Yeah. I wasn't sure if I would or not. Um, the, but I figured I, you know, I [01:26:00] applied to, I've been gonna the National Folk Festival in Canberra every year since, for about 30 years. I've volunteered there for 20 led volunteering teams there for five or 10 years of those. And I remember after the pandemic, I kind of stepped in and helped save the day in a couple of ways.

And, um, the end of it, I messaged the directors and said, Hey, you should add me to the board. And they, they never replied to my email. So I've always had a chip on the shoulder about not being able to join a, you know, festival board. Granted that personal had 30, 30,000 attendees. So different scale, but so when, uh, when in conversations I thought that might, you know, I heard that might be a good fit.

I was very flattered and thought I'd love to be involved and I thought it'd be cool as well to, um, make sure that the results of the survey get implemented in the next steps. And I think, um, someone's been burning pretty committedly for five years, uh, my contacts and could be useful. So yeah, yesterday was the A GM for the Sunburnt Arts Board and so there was a democratic election process and [01:27:00] I was voted in, so I'll be, um, involved in some sense.

It's kind of unclear because it's very interesting org chart structure at the moment, still working out. There's a, the SBA and SBE emerging and there's a whole bunch of things. Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting more involved as a steward of the burner community.

Stevan: All right. So let's, let's end, let's end by talking about the vision of the future of our community.

Um, now an interesting stat that actually came out from Burning Man this year was that there was a, a new birth, a, a new human that that was born on BlackRock City. Wow. That's cool. So that's gonna be an interesting future for that, for that particular person. Um, how do you see our, like, from doing the surveys, um, and, and all the findings that you've, you've uncovered, how do you see us moving forward?

Peter: Well, I think, can I, can I pass to Rowan first? I mean, he, he's, he's, he gets this stuff way better than I do. You there Rowan?

Rowan: Yeah. You just drop, drop me on it, [01:28:00] right? How do I see us moving forward? Yeah. Well, I can't, well, I'd only be guessing, wouldn't I? And look, I'm not gonna be one of the decision makers, but look, it's clear that, you know, Peter and the crew, they're gonna need to look at all this.

They're gonna need to look at the site options. They're gonna need to look at the date options, um, and, and then look at some of this internal kind of structure stuff a little bit. And then come up with something and, you know, we've all got faith in them to, to make their best decision. It's not gonna suit everyone.

And, yeah. Just back on personally, I feel now I'm ready to volunteer in a crew again. I feel enough faith in them as leaders to be stewarding that, which that's positive. If I think if I'm a barometer, I'm feeling like that. I think a lot of other people are feeling the same way. So I think through this, a bit of feeling process.

We've had this survey, conversations like this one, it's bringing people back in. We're we're feeling more like we're on the same wave, at least in this part of the world. Uh, and that's all gonna be positive. [01:29:00] So look. I've got faith that there was gonna be a significant size inclusive event in 2026. Can't say exactly where, how I really hope we're gonna be able to burn like anyone, but if there's enough lead in time, our camp will be there in, in stacking numbers.

And um, you know, I think a lot of other people are really gagging for it. So, yeah, that's my prediction. Something good's coming up.

Peter: Bull shit. Rowan doesn't have a vision. My division is just derived from his vision. My, so my, the, the, my vision, which really is, you know, derived from Rowan's vision, right, is, is, you know, at a minimum, a big event.

You know, it's, it's what we all want. We wanna invite everyone. We want a bunch of, wanna meet new people. We wanna see the old ones. We wanna have a big fucking rave. We're gonna have, it's gonna be effortless. I guess. This is where I can come here. I, you know, we're gonna make it really easy for everyone to do it.

Wanna just a proper bureaucracy. [01:30:00] You know, inspired by early 20th century anarchy philosophy meets open source software. It's gonna be great. I think, um, you know, row's got a bigger vision than I do. You know, he, he sees the, some, he's, he's worked out, maybe it's probably warrant his own whole session, but like a burning man sized event in, in, in New South Wales, or I, I dunno if it's in New South Wales specifically, but, you know, an Australian burning man.

So it's too far for me to get excited about it. Like, unless, unless we buy a plane. But, um, yeah, no, I, I think the, the vision is great. Um, I think the vision that everybody has is around an event. Like there's so much discussion, no delivery. There's so much like, oh, we, it's not, it's not rocket science, right?

It's just a fucking big event. Like you don't have to reinvent the wheel

Stevan: is an option also to go bi bi-annually. Right. Taking a, taking a bit more, I guess the longer term view, you [01:31:00] know, like in, in

Peter: two years or twice a year?

Stevan: Well, no, twice a year. But having a sustainable, because you're talk, you're talking about burnout, you're talking about volunteers, you're talking about culture, you're talking about, um, other factors, other variables.

So

Peter: I think if you are risking burnout with an event once a year, doubling the number of events is gonna double the risk of burnout. Oh, you mean like small two smaller events a year

Stevan: well have it, have it every second year or something like that. Just to, um, second

Peter: I think, um,

Stevan: um, our, our available capital and resources.

Um, yeah, because I guess, I mean, 15 years ago we, we only had one large event to come together and back then we were probably all thinking, oh, wouldn't it be great to have the, all these other small. Events closer and now we do. That's a good point. And we are looking at it like, well this is great. We have all these small, it's only an hour way, but where are all the people that is, you know, so we, we we're in that crossroads as well.

We want things.

Peter: That's a very interesting [01:32:00] point.

Stevan: Yeah, so I don't know. I guess the future feel, we're gonna look at different angles, different perspectives,

Rowan: look, theme camps in our discussions. Definitely that was talked about. Some people brought that up, Steve. They were, they did echo what you said. Should we be considering biannual had talk about that.

Look, it was less popular and some camps also. People don't really see what theme camps do, but they, they maintain year-round storage at expense. They move near the sites. They're going to, there's a whole bunch of things like that are involved in growth. It's a whole nother nother side to it. And, and it's what's worth, what's justify, um, look at, and even at event failure for We Weather, it's such a big blow for a theme camp community.

Uh, yeah. So they, some of those things are part of it as well, and potentially bouncing between different sites up and down the coast and stuff. It's, it's difficult, it's costly. And look, a, a year without an event is, is is a year of community sort of sags as well. We're all like fireflies, we're flashing and we're moving fast.

And, um, so, but look, there's, there's people open to [01:33:00] having those discussions as well. And so I guess, yeah, Peter, it's gonna be one of the people that'll be hearing them or leading them.

Peter: I had a sort of sick fantasy that somehow we find a way to merge all the events into one mega event that like, but I recognize that, you know.

The nature of human psychology will prevent that from ever happening. But how cool would it be if we just. Amalgamated.

Rowan: Oh. But, but that's where the burn is, Pete. It is the big gathering. It is all the tribes coming together. Mm. And, and, and that's what's so great about it. Yeah. But look, I think we've grown since those times.

You're talking about Steve as well. I think there will continue to be a privilege creation of smaller attorney events, theme camps have had to become more creative about finding sites and alternatives. And they, they'll stay, you know, there's some great things happening out there. They're just a little bit exclusive, you know, and, and by nature.

Um, but we're also missing all these theme camp fundraisers. It'd be lovely to see that all popping back as well. So there's gonna be things to see and do. Mm-hmm. You know, you guaranteed.

Stevan: Yeah. Well that some of the challenges that, that theme camps was facing is, you [01:34:00] know, finances, pooling resources, and you know, just fundraisers, stuff like that.

Rowan: I think the biggest challenge theme camps have been facing regards of burn is no burn to go to, you know, so we've had to go all, well, we'll create our own, you know, by default and not all have had the capacity or resources to be able to do that. So there's people missing out, you know? Yeah.

Stevan: Yeah. Cool.

Thanks. Thanks very much. I think this is very important, um, data and information that you guys gathered and conducted. Uh, I appreciate that. It's, it's good to see where, where our community was at is at, and you know, the, the roadmap is out there for us to build. Yeah. Let, um, let's, let's give us some shout outs before we leave Peter Rowan.

What's, uh, you know, in terms of the, the surveys that you guys done? So who has helped you? Any shout outs and,

Peter: yeah, well, big shout out to Rowan who was the, not only the sort of initiator and, uh, originator of the survey, but was in many ways my thought partner during the initial phases was the, reviewed it more than [01:35:00] anyone.

Um, really that encouraged and supported me through that. Um, Amelia Loy for of course being, um, Amelia and bringing me into this world and, um, her support there. Uh, therea. Tvo was huge support as was, um, Arianne Blanche, Al Leanna, Gabe Roly, Felipe, Alicia, and then, um, Jessica, the graphic designer who made the beautiful report in the end.

People can head to.

I don't know how they can access the site. I should probably think about making it discoverable on Google, but

Stevan: Okay. That's, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll attach all that on the show notes also, Rowan, you recorded the, um, what, what do we have? The, the, it wasn't a GM, it was the town hall. Mm.

So we're gonna link that up as well so people can re review it. Shout out, shout outs, Rowan.

Rowan: Yeah, well I was, I'll certainly, um, yeah, just my shout outs to anyone that's really participating in all this, uh, which is the fame camp people, like I said, donate a lot of time on the phone. But also everyone, like Peter was saying, the collective amount of time and wisdom [01:36:00] summarized by those survey responses, sharing it is collective.

A lot of people have all been given to this process. Um, and I think that's, that's been really positive. But, uh, yeah, especially people that are, are stepping up and donating time in a leadership roles like Peter and the others that we just saw elected yesterday. So thank you. Uh, and that's inspiring in giving confidence to people that wish to volunteer more.

So it's that wave of people inspiring each other. I think this has been really positive to just slow down, have a little bit of reset and, and be able to have those conversations rather than just, uh, uh, moving too fast. So I think it's gonna enable us collectively. Just to make a, a better, more inclusive decision.

So just, uh, shout out to, to everyone that's participated and yourselves for hosting these, these very discussions. So thank you.

Peter: Yeah. Thanks Steve. Thanks PY Yeah, it's been very motivating to come chat about this.

Stevan: It's been insightful, uh, as, as well as an encouraging, um, it is a glass half full kind of situation here.

So thank you very much for providing all [01:37:00] those insights and, and discussion points, guys.

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