Stevan: [00:00:00] A big bonzaar. Welcome to everyone. This episode will focus on the Underland volunteer team and talk to some of the leads and crew. Uh, before we do that, how's it going? Space, Cake? It's been a while.

Bek: Yeah, it has been. It has been, but it's been a, um, a busy time. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Stevan: Bit of a rollercoaster for me. Um, uh, with, uh, with disappointment of seed not happening, but, um, we did manage to have a renegade burn in between.

So the last time we spoke was in the summertime and we had a few events passed already. Uh, Kiwi Burn and Blazing Swan.

Bek: Yeah. Um, so you went to Embers, the, um, the Renegade Burn.

Stevan: The Renegade doof, that's right, yes.

Bek: Yeah, that, that was the replacement for seed. Awesome. Where was that held? The photos looked great.

Stevan: It was held in Wiseman's Ferry, so it's about an hour and 40 minutes, 45 minutes from Sydney. [00:01:00] Yeah. It's a great, uh, was, it was a great site, actually. Um, it was, it just very lucky for, for us to, to, to have it available for us. Mm. Especially during a, a long weekend, you know? Yep. Public holiday and school holidays and Yeah.

Although the, the weather was, I think, um, a, a bug, not a feature of the event. Everyone was annoyed with how cold it was, and there's, there's gonna be a lot of discussions about that. I think Winter burns,

Bek: that's so funny. Given that seed was gonna be held in a location, which was even colder than Wisemans Ferry in the middle of the year.

Stevan: Yeah. Anyway.

Bek: Yeah. Good stuff.

Stevan: And also, yeah, the last time we met in person was at bonza Summit.

Bek: Yeah, that was held in Melbourne. Melbourne, yeah. At the end of May. And for people who, dunno what that is, that's a uh, I guess a burner convention where all the, um, leads and, um, no, it's not just leads, it's artists and other super keen folk.

Stevan: Well, how would you de who were invited? So how would you describe yourself? You're an [00:02:00] A-lister now then?

Bek: Well, apparently so. I mean, they've got a pretty strict, um, invitation policy, so you can't just. Be invited along unless you've got something to contribute. But that was really good. It was a, a two day all day conference style event with lots of presentations.

I thought it was fascinating. It was really fun. I mean, the, the early morning starts were a bit of a killer 'cause we had that fundraiser on the Friday night for Sin City and then a 9:00 AM start was just brutal. I didn't, I didn't show up until after lunch, but

Stevan: yeah. Yeah.

Bek: Did you show up on time?

Stevan: Of course I did.

Bek: You were there,

Stevan: there on time. Took the pictures. You know, I took some photos, took the of, um, and spoke to a, a lot of new people that haven't met, and also catching up with the old people as well. Mm-hmm. And, um, yeah, made, made some new, new friends from, from China.

Bek: Yeah. That's super cool. Interestingly. Yeah,

Stevan: so had had a lot of fun talking to those guys

Bek: and, um, and now esteemed colleague PY was a, um, successful [00:03:00] recipient of a, a Grant PY.

Have you talked about that publicly yet?

Stevan: Let's invite PY on.

PY: No, that hasn't been discussed yet. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me on guys. It's, uh, it's a pleasure to be here. The bonza summit, was good, wasn't it? And um, yeah, I was, um, the fortunate recipient of some, uh, BWB. Civic ignition grant money is good.

So I'm gonna put that to good use over the next year.

Bek: Please share with our listeners what that might entail because I think that'd be interested. And congratulations by the way. It's excellent.

PY: It was, um, yeah, I hope to do a pilot of a burner, regional library of things or as I like to call it, burn a lot.

Dad joke.

Bek: Sorry, I don't get it. But

PY: anyway, it's,

Stevan: you squish all the letters together,

PY: squish all the letters and burn, burn are regional library things are LOT. Anyway, so the idea is that, um, one of the problems we [00:04:00] commonly face in the burna verse is that we have our burns in regional areas and we haul a whole lot of infrastructure there.

We use it for a couple of weeks of the year and then we haul it back to the city and then quite and often it just goes into storage for another 11 months and then we haul it out again. Wouldn't it be great if we had some sort of technical library, a library of things in those regional city, uh, towns where we do our events, where we could go and borrow stuff every year to use it.

So if you've got like a little solar generator, a regular generator. Tables, marquees, gazebos, that sort of thing. Wouldn't it be great if there was a place where burners could borrow that stuff and use it, and then when it's not being used for the other 11 months of the year, that can go to being a regional library of things for locals in that town use with the idea being that, um, if locals want to come to one of our regional events, we'll, we'll give them first dibs [00:05:00] at any of that year to come and do their own theme camp, their own popup, their own whatever.

So yeah, that's my idea in a nutshell. A a regional library of things.

Bek: Mm-hmm. Super clever and a great way to get the community engaged and interested in what we do. That's for sure.

PY: I hope so. Yeah. Look, a library's only as good as its librarians. And I'm obviously not living in original area, so it'll be a case of our pilots finding, um, a really keen, dedicated local librarian and hopefully we're, we're on the track to locating just that kind of person.

Bek: Well, that's exciting. I look forward to hearing about how that pans out.

Stevan: How about the, um, the Underland marketplace? The, is that what it's called?

Bek: Yeah, it was the, you talking about the Underland community market that we just held?

Stevan: That's Yes. Underland community market. Yes.

Bek: Yeah, we held that in Melbourne on the weekend, just gone.

Um, it was in a community hall. It was indoors. We had the heaters cranking. So it was really warm. It was really light inside, really inviting. Uh, we had maybe [00:06:00] 14 vendors, some of which are part of the festival community in Melbourne, some of which are not. And yeah, we had a whole range of different options that they were selling.

So someone was selling chai, someone was selling, um, jewelry, made out of chain mail. Someone else rocked up and was selling, um, raw herbs and various types of, um, homemade tinctures and stuff like that. There were a lot of secondhand festival clothes and then there was brand new amazing creative clothes that were for sale as well.

Had a lot of people come through. Lots of families, lots of doggos, lots of kiddos and lots of burners. Old and new. We had a lot of new faces come through. Uh, it was just a really fun vibe, really chill. We were selling coffee and cookies and we had a raffle and it was, um, yeah, just kind of wholesome fun, you know.

Stevan: Um, what's the main, what's the main idea behind this event? Is it just to bring the community closer and, yeah. What's it test out? What's. What kind of arts and crafts is available?

Bek: Yeah, look, it's more about doing something outside of underland, uh, CAV, uh, or Common Arts Victoria really want to [00:07:00] do year round events, that engagement,

Stevan: more engagement.

Bek: Don't just focus on Underland being the, I mean, underland is the flagship event, obviously, but that's a big commitment for people. It's a camping event multiple day in the region, and you've gotta, you know, lu all your stuff there and back, and not everybody has the energy or the, the finances to, to do that type of thing.

So holding events throughout the year, which aren't doof related or aren't, you know, camping related is a great way to bring people together, uh, in a more accessible way year round. So there's talk of us expanding the market model in future years. Um, I personally really like it being a little community market.

You know, people drop in, drop out. We had couches out the front, so it was like a bit of a lounge room and we had this big porch out the front and, um, one of our volunteers rocked up with a three piece vintage couch seating arrangement, and there was rugs and it was just really fun, you know, people coming in, trying things on, having a chat, talking about underland, talking about, you know, seed as well.

And just a great way to have conversations with people throughout the year, because [00:08:00] it's a long time between a burn, right? Like, there's not much happening in the middle of winter down here. There's a few fundraising parties, but, um, you know, if you're not really interested in partying late at night, this is a great opportunity and you can bring your kid along, or your dog, or both

Stevan: well's, the knowledge on or the exposure.

In terms of people knowing what Common Arts Victoria is or Underland is, is,

Bek: yeah. Well we had a, a, an underland table there specifically set up for that as a, uh, an awareness raising exercise. So we had information sheets there about what the different roles are. Um, we had QR codes where you could scan and sign up to be a volunteer.

Yeah, we had volleys at that table all day answering questions. Yeah, it was great. There, there were definitely a whole bunch of new faces that came through. People that had heard of Underland but didn't really know how to get involved. Um, you know, burn curious folk who haven't had an opportunity to to commit to a big event.

Uh, yeah, they floated on through and put to see what we were all about. We had a sound system. We had DJs playing. Um, so it was quite festive. I mean, you could definitely hear us, you know, outside of the building. And we have this brand new Underland [00:09:00] banner, which we stuck up out the front. Quite a big one.

It's like, here we are, and you couldn't miss it from the street. But we were in just a suburban community hall next to a park. Yeah, it was really nice, nice vibes. I got a big kick out of it. I mean, it was a big day, but I had a lot of fun just chatting to people, getting excited about Underland, which is only, what, eight weeks away it's like,

Stevan: yeah.

It'll be interesting. It's not that far away. It'll be interesting to see these, these faces popping up at Underland. It'll be good.

Bek: Oh yeah. And 'cause I was there representing Center Camp and um, you know, I had people asking me, I've got this idea, can I run it at Center Camp? I'm like, you absolutely can.

And just talking them through what, what that might look like and what we offer at Center Camp was. Yeah. I think it was a really worthwhile experience. Yeah, it's a good model and we'll definitely be doing more of it.

Stevan: Well, speaking of center Camp, um, we've, we've had some, PY, do you want to talk about, uh, this episode that we're gonna be leading into?

PY: Yeah. This is, this episode has turned into a bit of a monster, a bit of an odyssey. It's the Underland,

Stevan: Chris Nolan Os Odyssey.

PY: It's the, the [00:10:00] Underland Odyssey, the, the, the Journey to Underland. It's the Underland Volunteers call out episode. So I wanted to do quite a comprehensive whip round each team in the lead up to Underland and have a chat to the lead on that team about what it's like to volunteer on that team, what that team does, what's the time requirement, what's the skills, skills requirement, what do you get out of it?

I managed to get around to talk to pretty much everyone, um, with the exception of three teams where we unfortunately don't have a lead assigned yet. So in those cases, I was able to find a, um, we say a knowledgeable person from the community who knew a lot about that particular team and interviewed them instead, and still managed to get a pretty good insight into what it's like being.

A member of that volunteer team.

Bek: Yeah, I think it's really great opportunity to hear from all the different teams and the different personalities that the leads all have. [00:11:00] Everyone's a little bit different and the roles are all a little bit different. I'm looking forward to hearing how it all pans out and if anyone is interested in signing up, you know, what a great way to, um, wrap your head around what opportunities there are.

PY: And of course, you Beck you are on there as the centre camp lead, so you are gonna be in part three along with the artery and the two build teams.

Bek: Well, there you go. Watch out for episode three.

Stevan: So do you wanna talk about, uh, what we'd be hearing in this episode coming up? Um, who did you manage to, to get?

PY: Okay, so I managed to get hold of, for part one, the gate team, the greeters team, SPAM team, that's site planning and maintenance team, sanitation team, and the Leave no trace team. So they're kind of the infrastructure people if you like. They're the people who are gonna be in part one. In part two, we're gonna hear from people who are a little bit more [00:12:00] on, shall we say, the, the serious side of things.

That is the Rangers sanctuary fire team and Sandman. And in part three we move on to the fun stuff. So we get into the Artery Team center camp team, and then the two build teams, the Effigy build team. And the Temple Build team. And in both of those cases, the Effigy lead and the Temple lead both had a lot to say about their projects.

They were happy to disclose a lot more details about the arc that, and we usually hear about this early on in the piece. Um,

Bek: yeah. That's controversial.

PY: Yeah. But also fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. They're, they're both from very different backgrounds. They both have very different levels of experience doing burning stuff, and they, they have a, a [00:13:00] different take on the process and it's gonna be fascinating to see how each of them pulls off their build and how they feel about it during, and how they feel about it after.

It's gonna be really fascinating ride, I think.

Bek: Yeah, that's, and I guess for our listeners who might not be. Familiar with how it usually pans out at these things. But normally the, the effigy design and the temple design are, are closely guarded secrets. And you don't know what the effigy is gonna be until you are there and you see it and it's, you know, a little bit of a, a, uh, a ritual to arrive on site, put your stuff down, and then you wander over to where the build crew are and you have a look at what's, what is there.

And it's always a big surprise. At least it's, for me,

Stevan: usually there's like a, a burner embargo. I think it's like, don't post anything or don't call your friends and tell 'em what it looks like and, you know, keep it a [00:14:00] secret. So it's, it's, I think it works where, where you're, you're, you're naturally pleasantly surprised when you get on site and, and view it and see it in, in its, um, in its whole capacity.

Yeah. But yeah, photos and everything and you know, just, uh, even just telling people what it, you know, describing it just kind of ruins it, I think. But, um, yeah, that's just me.

Bek: But ironically for the big burn, I mean, they, they, they have these big public displays of what the art is gonna be that year. And, you know, it's funny, the big one, they share it and the smaller ones, it's all a big secret.

So it's, it's cute either way. And I suppose, um, yeah, we just have to tune into episode three to find out what the effigy will be for Underland 2025. Exciting.

Stevan: So that, so that last section is more about the creative side of, of Underland or the burn. Um, were there any particular themes or any particular, uh, things that stood out for you when, when you had a chat with these people?

PY?

PY: Yeah. A couple of different [00:15:00] things. Look, it's, it was fascinating how each of the leads temperaments was really reflected in the type of work that they do for the event. And that just kind of highlighted to me that everyone has to give in their own way in a, in a way that, that suits them in a role that suits them.

We've got people there who are very regimented, very organized, very disciplined in, in what they do in day-to-day life. And that's the sort of lives they live professionally. And that's the sort of people they are in general. And they slot into these roles at Underland where we, we do need people who are very disciplined and regimented to keep us, you know, safe from, and keep the fire from getting outta control and all of these other things.

And then there's people who want to contribute in a, in a different, in a different way. They want to contribute perhaps, could we say in a bit more of a, um, in a low key [00:16:00] fashion, in a gentle kind of fashion. And that's reflected both in their nature and in the type of on

Stevan: more like in the background kind of thing?

PY: Yeah. Also, I think just in the manner of which they'll be able to do the work. They'll be able to do their work. Talking about roles here that are sort of a little bit quieter, a bit more meditative, things that can happen in the background, perhaps throughout the event, and not one kind of big, kind of peak moment like we have with the, with the burning of the FG sample.

So there's that, you know, there's diff it's, you know, different strokes for different folks. The universal theme that I found was everyone who volunteers talked about how much they got from, from the volunteering experience, how they felt so much more connected to the event, connected to the community, and how the experience of the, the whole [00:17:00] event and the whole scene was so much deeper for doing volunteer work.

Uh, and that was a universal theme throughout everyone that I interviewed.

Bek: Yeah, for sure. What you get out, what you put in,

Stevan: and they're all transferable. You can use it at, in different industries, in different, uh, situ situations and scenarios. So yeah, absolutely. Skills for life, really. Okay. So shall we talk about what's coming up?

I think, uh, we're all excited for, I mean, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's quite cold. It's winter. It's quite, we're all in hibernation mode, so a lot of interesting things happening in the, in the next few months. First is the, um, Simplifyre. Let's talk about a little bit about er, how it's, how it's changed from being a, a, a multi sort of, like it was from a Modifyre to a shortened version of a community gathering now.

Bek: Mm. Yeah. I think that, how,

Stevan: kind of like that.

Bek: Yeah. They've, they've adapted. So, uh, it was originally called modifier, [00:18:00] M-O-D-I-F-Y-R-E, hu spelling, and I think it was five. Um, in gun Windy Shire. And yeah, they've run that for a few years, but I think it's really hard running these sort types of events if you've got, um, changing personnel and, you know, people coming and going all the time.

So I think it's a really smart pivot to go to a, a weekend event. Was it two nights? I think they've got in a different location as well, but, um, I'd love to go to that. Just tricky timing with everything. So that's in, uh, uh, late July.

Stevan: That's right, yes. In,

Bek: in southeast Queensland somewhere.

Stevan: Yes, that's right.

Yeah.

Bek: We should have a chat with those guys.

Stevan: Yeah, we'll try to get some more updates from them. And then,

Bek: 'cause one of, Jeff is one of the guys that briefed us at, um, the summit around Eclipse Burn. Mm mm Which is probably still under embargo.

Stevan: Yeah. Maybe we're not allowed to talk about that yet. But, uh, yeah.

And third degree, which is in September the fourth to the eighth.

Bek: Oh, so that's before Underland?

Stevan: That is before s [00:19:00] several weeks.

Bek: That's amazing.

Stevan: And then Underland.

Bek: Yeah. So last weekend in September, and then after Underland, there's a Tassie burn.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Stevan: That's right. Yes.

Bek: Which is in what November?

PY: Everyone's excited for that

Stevan: the 5th of November. To the 10th of November.

Bek: Yeah. I'm gonna try everything to get to that one.

Stevan: And it's called Aurora.

Bek: Oh, they've given it a name.

Stevan: Yes,

Bek: I saw. Yeah. And Aurora is such a pretty name too. Mm, it's great.

PY: It's gonna be really convenient. But for people coming from interstate, I think it's, it's less than an hour from Hobart airport.

So you'll be able to touch down, like if you're coming by a plane touchdown. Um, hit Bunnings, go to the, you know, to get your last minute things. Go to the supermarket, get your last minute food, um, and then catch a lift or grab a high car or whatever. And it's not gonna be, you know, hours and hours and hours outta town.

It's gonna be if you, you know, like if you're doing a burn in Australia where you're gonna fly somewhere, like the whole fly drive thing, [00:20:00] this is gonna be one of the easy ones to do. So

Bek: yeah, I'm already thinking I'm gonna catch the boat.

Stevan: Yeah, the ferry cross.

Bek: I'm gonna go across and take the, the little teardrop camper and load up and make and do a bit of an adventure.

Is, um, Aurora four day, five day.

Stevan: It's from the fifth to the 10th of November.

Bek: Okay. Yeah. I better put my leave in from work. And it's near, um, sorry, it's near, uh, Hobart Airport, or Launceston Airport.

PY: Hobart.

Bek: So it's further south. Oh, cold.

Stevan: Well, it's in November, so it should be heating up by then. Even for, for Tasmania.

Bek: You wish, wish Tasmanians found.

Stevan: I've never been there. Just assuming.

Bek: Oh, that's further south you go. The colder it gets, but the guys were telling me that the site that they have, uh, is like a big bowl, so you're a little bit protected. The, um,

Stevan: like, like an amphitheater kind of.

Bek: Well, it's kinda like a volcano.

Like there's a big dip, um, and the event happens at the bottom [00:21:00] of the dip. So yeah, you're a little bit protected from, from the wind down in there.

Stevan: Yeah. Cool. Little valley

Bek: creates, creates, yeah. A little ecosystem is how they described it. Yeah. Didn't know it was down near Hobart. That's a bit more of a drive from the ferry anyway.

Stevan: Well, I'm looking forward to, to, to talking with them, whether, whether it's at, at the event, uh, during the event or, or post and, and get a little update from them as well, so, yeah. Cool.

PY: They, uh, they have a new website as well.

Bek: Gosh, they're organized. That's great. It's, they're a small team.

PY: It's Aurora Burn, A-U-R-O-R-A-B-U-R n.org au.

Bek: Amazing. And tickets are on sale?

Stevan: Not yet. Well, tickets are on sale for Underland, so,

Bek: and ticket sales have been pretty healthy for Underland.

PY: Oh, good to hear.

Bek: Yeah.

PY: Kind of like the idea that with these three events in a row, the third degree people can come to Underland as their decompression, and then the Underland people go to Aurora as [00:22:00] their decompression.

And then I guess maybe the Aurora people will what Go to Kiwi Burn as their. Decompression. Yeah.

Stevan: There is a burn in between. In October, uh, let's not forget the, the burning in Japan. So the Japanese burners, uh, they, they, they don't really have a fixed date. Usually it's in October, November. So this year's gonna be on the ninth to the 13th of October.

PY: Whereabouts? Oh, that's rad. What passeng in Japan is that?

Stevan: Well, uh, I'm, I'm not too sure in particularly, um, but they will. But the Jap, the Japan Burn has an online info session on 27th of July. So this is like an English speaking global event that anybody can come and ask a few questions and yeah. Getting to know them a bit better.

The organizers, I think.

Bek: Are you gonna go, Steven?

Stevan: Probably to the online event, but it's also on the same day as the, uh, burning seed, sunburn arts town hall meeting.

Bek: Mm-hmm. Well, which is in the person. Yeah,

Stevan: yeah. Which is, well, it's also available online. So you could actually do [00:23:00] both. If you wanna check out both, um, you know, meetings.

Bek: That's so, so exciting. The explosion of, of local burn events in our neck of the woods is amazing. You don't have to travel too far, you know, you're gonna be burned out, boom tish.

Stevan: There's a lot happening. Yeah,

Bek: there is a lot happening,

Stevan: which is encouraging and it, it really stimulates you to your ideas and thoughts and you know, what, what, what's possible, what we can do,

can do.

Bek: And we're certainly big enough.

PY: Definitely. One of the, uh, highlights from Bonza was hearing from the, uh, the Dragon Burn folks, wasn't it? That was crazy.

Stevan: Yeah. Big effort for them to come over to Australia for, for the summit. But, uh, they, they have been before and it's, it's one of the, their highlights on their calendar as well.

I think coming to Australia, getting out of China. Yeah. Yeah.

Bek: Yeah. It really did highlight for me, um, just what a burn is. We don't have to have all these departments, you don't have to do all the things that we, you know, we tend to do. A burn is literally just the intention [00:24:00] and then doing it right. And the way that they dealt with some of the, um, the obstacles that they encountered along the way, and their engagement with the local law enforcement was really fascinating how they, you know, managed to pull it off successfully.

And they've been doing it every year since. Was it like 2017 or something?

Stevan: 2014, yeah. Yeah. Quite a long time.

Bek: Mm. Yep.

Stevan: My, my takeaway from my lessons from that is that, yeah, you can do it anywhere, but you just gotta make sure that you also understand the local environment that you're doing it in. And, uh, 'cause it provides a challenge as well as, you know, maybe opportunities, because to understand the people, you know, uh, that goes to these events is, that's, that's what makes the community, I think all these, all these characters.

All these people, yeah. And the back stories and the journeys.

Bek: And then you throw in some crazy location with, you know, various other challenges such as weather and, um, GE geography and geology

Stevan: and culture. Yeah. Throw in the culture and rules and the laws. [00:25:00]

Bek: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

PY: I thought they, uh, approached a lot of those tricky situations with a lot of good humor.

Bek: Yes. That is exactly how they dealt with it. They didn't overthink it. Can you, I can imagine some of us here dealing with some of those issues, we'd just tear ourselves in, into pieces, whereas they're just like, oh, we'll just do it. Yeah. We'll see what happens. Roll with it. Yeah. It was inspiring.

PY: It was.

Stevan: Okay. So, shall we get to, into this episode? It's, it's gonna be a, a, a trilogy of content. Any, anything else you wanna talk about PY while we leading into this, uh, episode?

PY: This would just be a good opportunity for anyone who's unfamiliar with the events, unfamiliar with what volunteering at an event like this is, like, this will just be a good opportunity for them to hear about each of the teams.

Understand a little bit about kind of the culture and, and the ethos inside of each of those teams and, and what it might feel like to be on, on one of those teams. And then, you know, um, use that as an opportunity [00:26:00] to, um, jump right in to volunteer and, uh, get more out of the event as a result.

Stevan: Yeah, it's also also information sharing.

PY: Yeah.

Stevan: This is how we do it here. It might be different situation for other burns across Australia. So yeah.

PY: Yeah, I think it's definitely a case of, um, this is a way of doing things, but not the way of doing things. Okay. Well let's get into it. First up, we are hearing from the GATE team.

Michelle, welcome to the bonzaar podcast. How are you doing today?

Michelle: Thank you very much. I'm pretty good. I'm happy to be here. It's a bit wintry outside, but apart from that, um, hopefully you're cozy and warm. As am I.

PY: Yeah, it's a, it's a cold actually for both of us. It's a cold day in Adelaide. You are the only person.

It's, you are the only person so far on this episode. [00:27:00] Who's, who's another Adelaide in, so thank you. Well, um, we we're part of the, uh, the small minority elite club.

Michelle: Well, we'll just have to, uh, extend that club to, uh, bring more Adelaide's on board.

PY: Exactly my project. Thank you for coming onto the podcast. Um, my pleasure.

I've dragged you here in your capacity as a very knowledgeable gait person because as of mid-July 2025 when we're recording this, we do not yet have a gait lead allocated for on the land 2025. So I'm looking for people who have knowledge and can speak about GATE stuff. So thank you for putting your hand up for that.

Michelle: You are welcome. Yes, my pleasure.

PY: Well, we talk about gate. Can I get a bit of your backstory? How did you get involved with, um, Underland and Burning more generally?

Michelle: Yeah, [00:28:00] yeah. Well, um, how I became involved was that I attended my very first Underland was actually 2023.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: So that was the first time I went.

And less than a year before, that was the first time I went to any multi-day festival of any kind. So, and I'm not the youngest person around, so, uh, I, it took me a while to, to explore those, uh, sorts of events.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: Uh, and some of the people that I met at the other festivals, which were the town which no longer runs.

PY: Oh, right. Yeah. The town.

Michelle: Yeah, in 2022 and Tanglewood at the end of that year, they spoke about Underland. And having been interested in the Burning Man concept since hearing about it in the nineties sometime, I was really keen to learn more about it and potentially go. So [00:29:00] I asked, when I decided that I was going to go, I asked those who I'd, you know, who I'd spoken to about it, what they might recommend as a volunteer role role for a newbie.

Mm-hmm. And Kate was suggested. So, uh, then I went about putting in a, an application to volunteer, and I saw that lead role was needed. Mm-hmm. And I thought, well, why not? I, I have no idea what I'm doing. Mm-hmm. What can be the worst thing that could happen? So I put my name up for that. And in the end, uh, there was a, another person who was interested in leading the gates, so we co-lead the gates.

And that was really good because I learned a lot from Ellie having, she, she had experienced such endeavors in the past, so, uh, her experience was extremely valuable.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: And, um, it was good to have, you know, someone [00:30:00] else there to share the responsibility.

PY: Hmm. That's a pretty good effort jumping. Not only into volunteerism on your first year at a little burn, but going straight into a, a co-lead role.

That's a, that's a fair bit to take on. You know, in a first year I didn't know what

Michelle: I was taking on. Yeah. But, you know, um, I don't regret it in any way. It was really excellent experience. It was fabulous in lots and lots of different ways. Mm. So, um, and sometimes, you know, jumping, well, jumping in at the deep end can be the best way to get started.

PY: Mm. I think so. I think, um, it's a good way of having a, a good excuse to get to know people and get to know how to do things quickly and having a, like a little mission and, and, and purpose so you don't just float around site.

Michelle: Yes, absolutely.

PY: Uh, I think for some people that, that, that really helps. Uh, can I ask you, how did [00:31:00] you find it?

I think you're a bit like me. I, I certainly didn't get into this in my twenties. It was much, much, much later. And I remember hearing a statistic from the Big Burn where they said the median age of attendees is actually 38 or 39. So it's not, you know, it's the image of like a very young crowd is, is kind of not that accurate.

How did, how did you find it sort of, you know, going in a little bit. Later in life into the scene.

Michelle: Yeah. Really good.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: Uh, it was something that was on my mind having, you know, the town was the first one, uh, first festival I went to. And Mm, that was definitely a younger crowd, but I could also see a really diverse range of ages there.

And that was very, I guess, uh, reassuring to me that I could attend these events and not feel like I was the, uh, outlier statistically in that age category. [00:32:00] Uh, and you know, maybe for some people that wouldn't matter anyway, but for me, I think it would have made a difference to how comfortable I felt. So even at the town, although the, you know, probably average age was lower than, uh, Underland, seeing that that diversity in age was instrumental in me even considering going to another festival.

And so then under, uh, Underland, you know, there was that, I think the average age would've been older than the town. Definitely. And I think some of that is just because there's more preparation involved. You know, you've gotta get your shit together and think about it more and plan it more to, to participate properly.

PY: Mm. Yeah. It's a bit of a filter, isn't it? It's sort of, um, uh, multi-day. It's, uh, in our case, in state, a little bit of a drive. So it, it kind of, um, sort of weeds out the [00:33:00] people who can't be bothered to pack a fair bit of stuff into the car kind of thing. Yeah. That's interesting. And after going there for the first time, doing your gate shifts, how did that experience set you up for the, the rest of the event?

Because your volunteer duties kind of happened right up front. It wasn't like you were doing more of l and t role, so the event end, and then you would, you know, spend a couple of days doing your thing. You were kind of right up front, literally upfront, seeing people roll up to site. They, you would've been the first person they saw coming through gate.

How did, how did that experience of, of doing that work upfront shape the, the rest of your event?

Michelle: Well, it shaped the entire event in many ways. Mm. And I guess the, the biggest impact it had was on my time because, you know, in the lead up to the event, there was quite a lot of time that we spent, so even before the event, you know, began, there was [00:34:00] time spent, uh, promoting the volunteer roles for, you know, encouraging people to come and be a part of it.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: Uh, setting the scene for what we wanted GATE to be, you know, in terms of, um, making sure that all of our volunteers understood the role well and could carry out the role. Well even just, you know. Scheduling people and deciding how many volleys we needed on each shift and when the shifts and how long they should be.

And all of those sorts of logistical, um, organizational factors shaped the experience before I even got there. Uh, and so I started communicating with volunteers before arriving. Mm-hmm. And it's quite interesting how I formed these ideas about these different individuals before meeting them and then how different some of my internal visualizations of [00:35:00] those people were to the actual people I met.

PY: It was a bit of a bit of a shock meeting them in relation.

Michelle: It was great. It was, well, the, the standout example is, uh, that there was someone who, you know, I just knew them as Jess Standard, some like 22 or something like that. Mm. And I, you know, pictured maybe because of the number, I can't quite remember, a 22-year-old.

PY: Oh, okay. Yes.

Michelle: Yeah. And, and on. She was working on the first gate shift and so I met her right up front and she was my age. And it's like, oh wow, that's amazing. And vice versa, you know, I had, um, my name is MIC Mick, which most people, when they say Mick, they think of a guy. And so she was expecting a guy and there I was.

So, and we're still friends where. Story. Um, and that was from that very first, um, gate shift that our friendship developed. Yeah. So, um, so [00:36:00] now I think I lost what the question was.

PY: Oh, it was, it was just about how, how the volunteering changed your, your event. And I, I I, I get your point. It, it's not just at the event things changed for you, it was because you were doing a coordination role.

Yeah. Um, you know, a lot of interaction in the lead up to the event. And then, and then I, I guess having that sort of little cadre of people that you knew already, those relationships formed before event while on shift and that I'm guessing, you know, throughout the event as well.

Michelle: Yeah. Yes, that's right. So, you know, we encouraged, uh, volun our volunteers to do more than one shift if they could.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: It's obviously, you know, that's efficient for teaching people the skills and knowledge they need to do a good job. Mm-hmm. Uh, at also, uh, the real, you know, one of the wonderful things about that is that you do get to, if you are there on engaged at the same time, uh, deepen those relationships. And I think one of the [00:37:00] best parts about the role for me was just getting to talk to so many new people.

Mm. And you know, it wasn't just sort of a, a coincidence that I bumped into them. There was purpose there. Yeah. And we were sort of united in a purpose.

PY: Mm.

Michelle: And that was a really. Easy way to then have conversation flow and develop some relationships.

PY: Hmm. Okay. C can we talk about the nuts and bolts of of Gate For people who don't know?

Gate Lit Gate literally is, is, is Gate what? It's literally the gate to the site. Can you, can you tell me what, what happens at the gate and what a GATE volunteer is required to do?

Michelle: Yes. Well, it is literally the gate, there is a paddock gate to open and, and close. And, uh, the, the role for, you know, not as a lead role but as a volunteer on Gate [00:38:00] is all about being that first point of contact and what needs to occur.

You know, the, one of the most critical parts of that is making people feel welcome.

So, you know, people have driven from anywhere from, you know, 30 minutes to hours away to get there. They might be tired, they might be really excited. They might be looking forward to catching up with, uh, people that are camping with friends mates, people they haven't seen in ages.

There's a lot of different things going on for people when they arrive. It might be getting dark. They might be really bit stressed out about getting to where they're camping and setting up.

PY: Yeah.

Michelle: So there's a lot going on in their minds. Um, and we want to keep, you know. Help them feel safe, welcome, and ensure that they know what they need to know in an efficient and friendly way when they arrive.

So, you know, creating a fun and welcoming vibe and a sort of seamless transition for their entry [00:39:00] mm-hmm. Is going to be good for them and it's going to be good for us. And so what we need to do is obviously check that they have a ticket, uh, and check their ID against a guest list. Mm-hmm. And if they're not on the list, uh, look into that.

But that doesn't happen very often, fortunately. Uh, and then put a wristband on them, so ensuring that everyone has a wristband. Mm-hmm. So, um, they're acknowledged as a ticket holder is really important. It's equally as important for any children to have wristbands, and we have different colors for those.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, children and to make sure that they understand the conditions that they're agreeing to by entering, and that they are aware of them so they can abide by them.

PY: Hmm.

Michelle: So that's sort of, you know, the key, um, information that we need to getting across and how we wanna do it.

PY: Were there any challenges in communicating any of those [00:40:00] conditions or, uh, requirements?

Michelle: Yeah, there were sometimes, um, not very often, fortunately, most people who came were pretty on the ball, pretty organized. They knew what to expect. Uh, and there were only a few occasions, which are a bit of a distant memory now, to be honest. Uh, that didn't, you know, fall into that category. And, um, there wasn't anything that we couldn't overcome.

Although a couple of times we, you know, asked for assistance, which is all part of it. You know, we're, no one knows all the information. And so it's part of working in a broader team, knowing when to ask for help.

PY: Yeah, that's a really good point, because it's not like it's all down to you as gate to solve those problems that might occur at the gate.

There's the event manager, there's rangers, there's the SPAM team, there's everything, there's, there's the whole network behind you, uh, just there at the, you know, one call on the radio and they're there, therefore you kind of thing.

Michelle: Yes. [00:41:00] And learning to use the radios. Yeah. That was an important part. So we could kill, keep those channels of communication open with the broader team.

PY: Mm. Radio protocol. Really important. Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like you had a good time on your first time doing the gate. Can you tell me what hours were the gate open? 'cause I understand the gate's not open 24 hours. Usually the gate will open on the afternoon. That of the official event start date. But then it doesn't run 24 hours, does it?

It goes into the night a little way and then actually closes. So you can't enter necessarily at all times of the day.

Michelle: Yeah, that's correct. Yes. So the hours were quite long that the gate was open. I think we, I started about eight o'clock, uh, that we opened. Oh, okay. Went through to, I mean, it depended on the day.

So I think on the first day we opened at midday and we went till 10:00 PM.

PY: Mm-hmm. [00:42:00]

Michelle: Um, on the second day we opened at eight and went through to 10 as well.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: On the, on the Saturday we, and Sunday we finished about seven 30. I think that was our sort of rostering time. So eight to 10 the first two days, and then eight to seven 30 on the final two days.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: So, yeah. Um, within that, you know, we obviously had, um, different shifts and splitting that time up and we'd have, uh, maybe three different volunteers on each shift. Mm-hmm. Well, that was our ideal, uh, for the busy shifts. Um, but sometimes, you know, most of the time we had probably two mm-hmm. People.

And on like the Sunday morning shift, one person was sufficient because quite know who's going to be arriving at, uh, Sunday morning. No, mostly over, but we still need, it's somebody

PY: for who had to go and then come back kind of, well

Michelle: [00:43:00] actually you can't do that.

PY: Oh, really?

Michelle: So, yeah. So it was, uh, you know, not an, if you're going to leave, you can't come back.

And that makes Gate a lot more manageable. Mm-hmm. And also that, one of the reasons I, I casting my mind back for that was that the police were really keen that people got on site and stayed there for safety. Yeah. That they weren't, you know, party goers racing off to off pub or whatever, or on the roads at all.

They just stayed there. And I thought that was actually a pretty good idea.

PY: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Can you remember how long the gate shifts were just to give people a indicative idea? I can of what, what their time commitment would be.

Michelle: I actually pulled up the roster, refresh my memory. So yeah, about four or five hours is what we decided on, you know, we had snacks and drinks or follies [00:44:00] at the gate.

Uh, see and that time can go really fast. So if you're really busy at the gate of cars lined up, those sort of earlier shifts and it's all sort of happening, the time goes super fast. And then when. So many people coming through the gate is just a lovely opportunity to get to know the people you're working with.

And it's really, really nice because you're sort of, you know, forced to interact with somebody that, somebody that you might not otherwise, um, and that presents, uh, you know, opportunities that you might otherwise miss.

PY: Hmm, absolutely. Can you remember any particularly challenging incident that happened in regards to managing any of the volunteers?

Michelle: Um, all of the volunteers were pretty good. Yeah, I, I, they were [00:45:00] happy to be there and enthusiastic about doing a good job and, uh, really wonderful people. Having said that, there was one person who turned up in a state unfit to contribute, and so, you know, fortunately there were other people, you know, it wasn't a really busy shift and it was all not the end of the world.

And there was someone who, I think it was my mistake, I thought that they were still volunteering when they'd pulled out because they were involved in other things and couldn't do it. So it's like, oh no, we don't have a person when we thought we would. But again, you know. And I guess because it was my first burn and I was actually really just enjoying being at the gate and, um, being, uh, there with a purpose, like you were saying earlier, you know, [00:46:00] I really appreciated having that anchor of that role.

So I wasn't just wandering aimlessly around, um, because I wasn't camping with a crew and I didn't know a lot of people. So, um, that was actually very anchoring for me. And so, you know, if someone didn't turn up for a shift or even when they did, I spent quite a lot of my time down there, uh, because I actually really enjoyed it getting to know the volley and having random conversations.

So when things didn't go perfectly, when people didn't turn up or couldn't, you know, participate, it wasn't the end of the world.

PY: Is there any particular skills are required to be gate volunteer?

Michelle: Well, willingness to smile and be welcoming. Communication is pretty high up there. Yeah. A willingness to follow some pretty simple instructions, but to follow [00:47:00] them well, because, you know, we really, it is a very important part.

The running of a successful event that we ensure that the people who are there have actually paid to be there and people who haven't, aren't there. Mm. Um, so, you know, ensuring, uh, that the protocols and, you know, I created a checklist, uh, for, for everyone to work with. So we all had some guidance as to what the expectations were and, and how to go about it.

And, you know, sort of tried to make it fun by making it like a quest and having a secret mission and having little remember things and what to do in certain situations to troubleshoot things that came up. So, you know, being able to read handy, being able to smile and, and those basic communication skills.

Great. And then just, I guess the next most important thing is being okay with asking for [00:48:00] help when you need it. Yeah. And recognizing when that might be. Um, and yeah, that they would be the main things. I, I would think.

PY: Hmm. Okay. It's, it sounds, uh, not overly complicated. You don't need to, um, have a PhD in gateology or necessarily come

Michelle: thank goodness,

PY: um, you know, with, with a, any kind of radio license.

All of all of that can be taught to you

on site.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah.

And that's another good point. Live radio, you know, um, having somebody, uh, upskill in the, uh, realm of radio operation so that there is that constant. Communication channel open at the gate was really important. But again, it's not a hard thing and it's like a lot of things, you know, it might seem a bit daunting when you haven't done it before, but if someone walks you through and you have a little bit of a chance to practice, then you'll be fine in no time.

PY: And it's, um, quite often just a bit of a confidence thing. As soon as people meet the first couple of radio calls, they're okay. Just a bit of [00:49:00] hesitancy to hit the button first. Yeah, exactly. It's sounding like being a bit more on the sober side is probably an important one as far as engagements go.

Michelle: Yeah.

Because we do have some really important questions that we, and, and points that we need to get, uh, through to everybody arriving. You know, have you got enough water to last you the duration of this event? And what do you think that quantity looks like? You know, even at times checking that people have, physically checking that they have sufficient water.

Yeah. Because we don't have that, uh, yes, you can leave and come back option.

PY: Mm.

Michelle: Um, it's really, really important. And of course, asking people whether they have essential, like their own garbage bags and they understand that they need to clean up after themselves fully and those sorts of basic things for the leave no trace con, you know, important concept and making sure that people, you know, [00:50:00] mentioning.

Like, have you brought any firework to Right. Um, so just checking things like that there. And that's why I made a list that the volunteers could work with because that, I know if I tried to, you know, remember those things off the top of my head, I might forget some and they are really important. Right.

PY: Do you have any plans for yourself to go maybe do all gate volunteering at different Yeah.

Burner events around Australia?

Michelle: Yeah, that'd be good. I did go to another burner event last year.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: Uh, called the third degree and I wanted to do some gate volunteering, but it was all full by the time I cottoned on to it. Uh, so I did a different volunteer role there, which was good as well.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: At hq.

And, uh, but yes, it, it, I enjoyed my gate time at Underland immensely and so I am planning to go this year and we'll get involved in some capacity, [00:51:00] uh, on GATE because my previous experience was so positive.

PY: Excellent. Well, I think GATE Volunteers can look forward to meeting you in real life there. Thanks for painting us a nice picture of, of what it's like to be on the Gate Volunteers team.

Um, okay. Who want to contact the gate lead, whoever that's gonna be. And, uh, get signed up. I think the best thing for them to do is go to the underland website, which is underland au and there you'll find a volunteer signup form where you can fill in your details and indicate that you'd like to involved with GATE Team.

Michelle: Yes, I would encourage anyone who hasn't been, uh, involved in any sort of volunteering capacity to definitely consider gate. I found it to be the perfect entry [00:52:00] point for me. Uh, and of course, if you have been to a burn and involved before, you will know that it's a pretty cool place to spend some time.

PY: Hmm. It's one of the things I look forward to at, at the big Burn actually rolling up there and seeing the gate crew all dressed in black. You know, like you're saying it, it's at the end of a long drive and at the beginning of a new experience. So you kind of think, are we here now? Like I'm seeing, I'm seeing the gate crew again.

This is the beginning Yeah. Of something. And, you know, you get to be that, that beginning of someone's experience on the paddock. Pretty exciting really. Yeah. Michelle, thanks for being on the podcast today.

Michelle: My absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.

PY: Next up is the greeters

Nibbles. Welcome to the Bonzaar Podcast. How are you today?

Kate: I'm great. How are you?

PY: [00:53:00] Good, good. Thanks for stepping into the breach today. You are my very knowledgeable greeters person. 'cause we do not yet have a greeters lead allocated for Underland 2025. So I've reached out to the community, find someone who has been a greeters lead for a different event, and in your case, much larger event in, in the past to pick your brain about what it involves to be on the greeters team and particularly what it involves to be the, the greeters lead.

So thank you for coming on.

Kate: Our pleasure.

PY: Now you are a West Coast person, which means that you go to Blaze, which is kind of our, currently our big daddy burn here in Australia. I look, I look to you guys as um, big brother kind of thing. Can you tell me about how you got started in the, the burning scene and what led you to Blaze and what led you to being the, the greeters lead blaze?

Kate: Yeah, sure. Um, I'll just give a bit of a brief [00:54:00] introduction first. So, um, my real name is Kate. I was born and raised on Noongar country, um, over here in Perth. Um, would just like to acknowledge the country. That's the country I'm calling in from as well.

PY: Awesome.

Kate: Um, my dad came to Australia from Myanmar. My mom was a settler Australian.

Um, and at the time of Blaze when Blaze started, I had just started doing a PhD in psychology. Um, so I'm fairly into philosophy and I guess the academics of it, which naturally I think leads me to really loving the principles and the philosophy behind burns. Mm-hmm. But the reason why I went to my first burn was actually because, um, in my early twenties, me and my sister found a video on the internet back in the early ages of the internet, um, of people jumping into those little like cyclones in America at Burning Man, like we call them Willy Willies in Australia, but they had so much lift in America that people were sort of able to get in and get a [00:55:00] bit of airtime in it, and they were dressed in cool costumes and we both decided we gotta go to this festival in America.

Um, and then my husband Knuckles, his, um, bestie Lewi had gone to a Burning man a few years before. A bunch of our friends all decided we've gotta commit and get over as well. And so we all went to Burning Man in 2012 and just came back to Perth with a really clear understanding that we could not afford to do that every year, and that we needed to do something closer and we could do our own here and connected.

Those early legends who started Blazing Swan and I got to watch them do it and be really close. And I was close enough for Frank to just sort of grab me at the beginning and say, we need a grid to lead. I think you'd be really great for that. How about it? And I said, yeah, that sounds right up my alley.

I'm happy to take that on.

PY: Wow. [00:56:00] This is crazy. So you've seen the evolution of Blaze from the very get go back in the day. Yeah. Back when it was just, and you've the original, the original inspiration for it.

Kate: A legal party in Lancelin and we weren't allowed to burn the man 'cause the police found us before we did.

PY: Yeah. I I've, we, we've had that story. Um, well we will be having that story on the podcast soon about, uh, not being able to burn the man and the face down photo photograph. Yeah. And, and yeah. All a crazy sequence that Yeah. It's always amazing how it's all these little things that happen and someone sees a photograph and someone calls someone, and then that leads to more people being connected and then you kind of get an event eventually.

Mm. So many tiny things have to happen. I get, and I guess it all started with you and your sister, like seeing that documentary

Kate: Yeah.

PY: On, on the internet.

Kate: Yeah.

PY: That's crazy. You, you kind of reminded me that that was my first brush with burning things as well. [00:57:00] I saw, it wasn't on the internet, but I saw something on tv, a documentary.

I've never been able to find it since, but it always stuck with me. Yeah. These guys building this art project. Okay. So you, you got kind of nominated to be the, the greeters from the greeters lead from the beginning. And I guess you'd seen greases in action already because you'd, you'd been through greases at the big way back when Yes.

In 20 20 12. 'cause they, they obviously had well established greeters at, at that stage.

Kate: Yes, they did.

PY: So did, did they have like separate gates and then they must have, they've been going for so long by that stage gate and then greeters that first year that you went to the big burn?

Kate: They did. It was kind of in the same experience, I suppose at Blazing swan it's a little bit more separated 'cause you do need to get in your car and move and I guess the, there's that physical distance between and, um, but there's still different staff.

Whereas from my memory, when I was at Burning Man, we got through the gate and [00:58:00] a walk away was the greatest station and they had the big gong. Um, they didn't get us to roll in the dust right there and then they just told us to go and do it out on the player, which I made sure I did. And I, I really was really moved by the fact that they said at the gate, welcome home.

And that was sort of the only really warm thing that they did at the gate, but it just made you feel so. Accepted and comfortable and excited before you'd even, you know, stepped foot on the player. And then the greeters were just such high energy. And I guess also really challenging you to lift your energy, which, um, I think especially after a six hour weight at a gate, you really need,

PY: that's it.

'cause you can queue up for ages there. Mm. It, it's off, it's, it's shorter at these regionals. Um, but you can have like a really long drive. And then the kind of the formalities and logistics of getting ate and making sure your, your ticket is okay and that you [00:59:00] haven't stowed away anyone in the car. And your car isn't about to eject moop everywhere.

Mm. Um, so it is important to kind of have that little ceremony, I guess to kind of like say you made, you made it. Yeah. Welcome, welcome home. This is the beginning of, of something. Now. Do you feel that that same high energy that they had that naturally suits your kind of temperament and the, the way you are normally day to day?

Are you kind of that high energy sort of person?

Kate: I think so. Uh, I've always worked in hospitality when I haven't been in academia, so I think you need to have that space that you put on that is high energy once you get onto the floor in hospitality.

PY: Yeah.

Kate: Um, I definitely think greeters are a real mixed bunch of people I know.

Especially the DPW crew often see us as sort of like the fluffers or the cheerleaders.

PY: Yeah.

Kate: But we're, it's a really mixed bunch. There definitely is. I think there's definitely a lot of, [01:00:00] um, academics and deep thinkers in the greeters that just really love the principles. Um, there's also a lot of people who are really performative, um, and artistic and creative.

A lot of, uh, greeter, um, leads have gone on to start their own fringe shows. And do, you know, performing as a career after getting a taste of it at greeters, people have started theme camps, um, done their own art pieces. And a lot of people actually join the greeters because they have social anxiety and I think it allows them to sort of get to know the crowd at Blaze and have these really authentic interactions with people.

Yeah. Without having to fully initiate it themselves. And yeah, once you do that for 10 to 15 hours at the greeter station, when you go into the player for the rest of your burn, people recognize you. And there you've already lowered that distance between people. So it sort of makes social interactions a bit easier after that as well.

PY: That's a really good point. You [01:01:00] are not only kind of giving that gift to people, welcoming them to the site, but you are, you're setting, it's, it's a gift to yourself. You are warming your own event up and sort of setting a good path forwards for the, the subsequent days that you're gonna have. That's really interesting.

Kate: Yeah. And a good practice for, I think when people are new and they wanna do a volunteering role, but they don't wanna commit to a theme camp yet, or they, you know, don't feel ready to just do their own art piece or something major like that, they can join the greeters and get to know the community and then, you know, decide, yes, now I know what theme camp I wanna start off my own or join, or what art piece I wanna jump to from here.

PY: Hmm. That's a really smart way of doing things, actually. I think that's, in some ways, I don't wanna discourage theme camps, but themes camps can be a bit of a mixed bag. And I think if you come in a volunteering role for your first year, [01:02:00] then you might get a bit more, should we say consistency in terms of organization shifts, leadership expectations, that kind of thing.

I think it's a really good way to start. And from, from what you're saying, it can be, um, a really good role for a first timer at original as well.

Kate: Yeah.

PY: Hmm. Okay. Cool. I like, I like also what you said about people who are really into the principles being readers. I like the idea that you can use this as a way to kind of, if you really believe in a particular principle, you can kind of embody it in your role as a, as a greeter.

That's really cool. Yeah. Hadn't thought about that before.

Kate: Absolutely. And in the greeter station there's sort of the really, well, the way we did greeting we went, there was someone who was sort of there to just warm people up and get them ready because generally they have to wait in a bit of a line before they go through the greeter station.

Then there's the person that takes 'em through all the [01:03:00] principles and gets to really share what they've learned and what each principle means to them, and then try to get people inspired about what they're walking into in terms of the community philosophy. And then we had another greeter who did this crossing the line ceremony that we created.

PY: Yes.

Kate: That I guess as well allows people to really lean into their own creative expression because we had a bit of a script of how that's supposed to look, but we really encouraged people to make it their own. So some people would get out their guitar and turn it into a song and sing people through.

Other people would be really mystical and, you know, witchy when they were doing it. And other people were much more like vibrant cheerleader type, um, encouraging other people to, you know, embrace what they were doing. So lots of different ways to be,

PY: isn't it interesting how that crossing the line thing that pops up in so many cultures?

I can remember at my, my grandmother's funeral really, uh, just really vividly that Buddhist ceremony stepping over that, that smoke [01:04:00] line. Mm. And that, that seems to crop up in so many cultures. It's like the transition point.

Kate: Yes.

PY: You know, you step over that and then things are are different. Okay. So that's cool.

Was the nuts and bolts of it. You had people kind of reaching in, in the queue as people are driving up. And then once people get out of their vehicles, that's when the, the education and the acculturation and, and the ceremony side of things begins. And then your greeters are kind of putting their own spin on that with music or performance or, or whatever their creative take on it is at, at the time.

So they get to put their own spin on things.

Kate: Yeah,

PY: which is really cool.

Kate: And they get to rotate through. So I don't think either of those you can do for two hours straight. So once you've given your all for half an hour, then you just switch positions and you can do something that takes something different out of you.

And yeah, I guess give yourself a bit of a pause to replenish whatever the other side was.

PY: Hmm.

Kate: Yeah.

PY: Um, and, and [01:05:00] I guess as the event draws on less after a certain point, there'll be no one very few people coming through the gate anyway, so the amount of gate people and the amount of greeters can go down a bit.

I guess as we sort of approach the, the burn times is less people will be coming through. Is that how it works or is there

Kate: We generally need the same amount of greeters because of the different roles, um, each time. So there would generally be three there, but sometimes, um, especially during the busy times, greeters would.

Of bring a friend and they would observe. And I guess it's the way to enroll people in, Hey, I'm gonna help out, um, in a unofficial volunteer capacity. See what they're doing, realize I like it, I can do this and maybe I'll volunteer as a greeter next time. And also sometimes when people cut, passing through the gate, they just liked the energy as well, and they would just hang around and help out.

If they could see it's a busy time, um, maybe we need more help with parking or whatever, and just stick around then as [01:06:00] well.

PY: It's nice, like recruitment on the fly. Mm-hmm. Did you find that you ended up building, um, a really up really consistent team year to year? The same people coming back to do greeters?

Kate: It definitely was the same people coming back. Some people are, I think, greeters for life. There's definitely a lot of people start off as a greeter and then they, they realize what their gift, what they want their gift to be, and they move on to say, I'm gonna do a theme camp this year. I'm wanna do an art piece this year.

Mm-hmm. I'm gonna do, you know, whatever else, um, has inspired them

from there.

PY: I guess you're really well positioned to do that as greeters, because you can talk to people a bit when they come in and they'll say, oh, I'm part of such and such a camp. And then you can catch up with them later.

Kate: Yeah.

PY: And then be like, oh, you are.

Okay. I remember you, you're part of this camp. Tell me more about this camp. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. It's, you kind of get an excuse to educate yourself about, you know, these people look cool. I wonder what they're gonna be up to in the event. Yeah. And later on you find out. [01:07:00] So I reckon I've got a good handle now on the, the nuts and bolts of what Greasers do.

Can you tell me a bit more about your role as the greeters lead? What was required of you sort of pre-event and then during the event, and was there any washup that you had to do after the event kind of thing? What, what did that role entail?

Kate: Yeah, sure. Um, I think from the very beginning I really saw, um, the importance of building capacity within the graders.

But I mean, I, it should be happening everywhere, but it's just something I've learned from previous work positions that I've had. So I always had, um, a co-lead. So if something happened to me or if I was gonna be very important out at Blaze for whatever reason, there was someone that could step into that position.

And after the first couple of years, we also started having a greater supervisors who we were sort of upskilling into potentially being able to be a co-lead if one of the co-leads wanted to step down. And they were [01:08:00] also able to sort of take a day and be responsible for supervising that day on the player.

So it wasn't just me or the co-lead that was responsible, um, for how things went on the player. People actually never stepped up into being a co-lead for the greeters, but they did step up into other leadership positions for Blaze. So I do think that when you're capacity building within any arena at Blaze, your capacity building for Blaze itself, because you're teaching people that they can step into leadership positions and

PY: Yeah.

Kate: Take those things on as well.

PY: Yeah. Yeah. Really important. And then people get an opportunity to get just comfortable with a little bit of general event organization. Simple things like getting on the radio.

Kate: Yeah.

PY: Okay. But that sounds really important, getting, building that capacity and getting people into that, that two IC and, and supervisory orial role.

Um, because often too, like too much weight does fall onto the leads and they do have to spend, I feel too much time, [01:09:00] um, at their particular station, be it greeters or GATE or, or whatever. And that does lead to a bit of burnout. So,

Kate: yeah. And there's a lot of pressure to stay if there's no one else that can step into that role, or if the person wants to step into that role, doesn't know what they're doing or isn't prepared or, you know, you sort of bring them into quickly or too soon and then they don't do a great job because they haven't really been supported to learn it.

And then the person who's burnt out feels like the need to come back. But yeah, I think there's a lot of community issues that get rolled into that.

PY: Well, I'm hoping just by shedding a bit more light onto these issues and talking about it more, we, we hold. Those kind of, um, challenges in our minds upfront.

Mm-hmm. And then when someone steps into that role, they think, okay, well it's not just about me, it's about building the next person who's gonna support me and the person who's gonna support them. It's sort of starting the dominoes falling. Yeah. In a good way. Then that sets us up for the future. Okay. So there was a bit of capacity building involved.[01:10:00]

Um, I presume there was just a few logistical bits, like spreadsheets and

Kate: Oh yeah. So before the event, we generally start pretty much after Christmas, so, uh, that would be like four months before the event. We, we do the recruitment for before Christmas and people sort of sign up straight away after the last event probably, um, a couple of months before Christmas is when a community, actually always a community of fundraisers, the greet elite and supervisors would be talking to people and going, Hey, have you thought about greeting?

I think you'd be really great for it. Or You wanna come to Blaze next year? Yeah, absolutely. Have you thought about volunteering? I think you'd be a really great leader. I think you'd be a really great ranger. That sort of stuff happens nonstop all through the year, just naturally as, you know, part of your role in the community.

But then, you know, before Christmas, we actually look at who's in there. We contact them, say You've been invited to greet, we're gonna start our meetings As of, you know, January. Generally we had them [01:11:00] every fortnight for the first couple of months and then every week for the last couple of months and mm-hmm people needed to attend at least two, but they were invited to attend as many as they wanted.

Mm-hmm. And it was really a bit of a workshop and, um, like a networking event. So we had all the greeters there. We generally get some pizza and some drinks and first of all go around, get everyone to introduce themselves. Then there'd be like a bonding question, like, tell us your favorite principle and why it's your favorite principle.

And that would sort of allow them to share a bit of a story about their Blaze experience so far. Then we generally talked about a few of the principles and really went on a deep dive into what that principle can mean for different people. What has been written about it online from Burning Man. And we sort of like stormed and normed with the group.

So everyone was sort of on the same page about what each of the principles mean. At the same time as realizing there's lots of different ways that each of their principles can be interpreted and when they [01:12:00] sort of interact with each other, they can change as well, because none of the principles really exist in isolation.

So that was the sort of, I guess, philosophical workshop part of the meetings. And then after that we would, um, bring out a bunch of dress up. Everyone would put on something. Perform. And then we would practice doing greetings, and then everyone would be allowed to do the greeting for everyone else. And you can see again, that there's a general structure that everyone's following and we could sort of pick them up and say, make sure that you don't forget this bit.

Make sure that you don't forget that bit. It's really important. But then everyone's allowed to sort of show how different people just do it in different ways and also get really encouraged by the group because, you know, greetings a really exciting thing. And so at the end of your little performance, everyone's like, yay.

Thank you. That was amazing. Um, we really love that you are sharing your gift with us. And you know, for the people who are a little bit more socially anxious, those [01:13:00] practices, um, are really important for them to feel like they can just do it on their own without a big group of people there supporting them on the day.

PY: That's really impressive. It sounds like you're really, really organized.

Kate: Yeah. And so then on top of that, we've got a spreadsheets for the contacts list for all of the equipment. We had incredible support from our DPW team with the building because we were able to sort of create a bunch of like moot tins that was part of the workshop as well.

After we did the performing, people just sat down and did some crafting. People just brought containers that they collected throughout the week, and then we decorated them and we would gift them out. At the greeter station for people to put like little cigarette butts or bits of gum or tiny little bits of meat that they find in and have them on there all the time.

Just as a reminder, we would sort of build decorations that were, I guess, low-key decorations for the greeter station, but we had other people from the community build us amazing metal greeter signs. DPW built us giant structures and they sort of [01:14:00] sat down with me and the greeter leads and supervisors every year and said, how are we gonna do it this year?

It never looked the same two years across. All that was important for us was the order in which the principles were put, and then DPW really got to work with us to encourage us to build bigger and build better with how things looked, and making sure things, I guess, were in alignment with whatever materials they had accumulated in the year or how the rest of the player was looking.

We also generally had someone volunteer their art and do a giant sign that was in line with the years theme, and we had a stick that we drew the line with that the co greeter lead found out in the desert. On the first year, my best friend, who's an incredible artist, decorated and crocheted and created a bunch of bubbles for and every year a little bit more, got added onto that as well, so it grew with the team as well.

PY: Hmm.

Kate: And so then we had our scheduling. Everybody knew what shifts they were on and who they would be working with, and they could get to know them during these sessions as well. [01:15:00] Out on the player. We had the supervisors that were running the day, someone had to come up and set things up in the morning, pack things down in the afternoon, although, mm-hmm the general structures were there, the principles were up all the time.

So when people arrived at times, the greeters weren't there. They could still walk through the principles on their own if they wanted. Or if you're a super keen greeter like me and you found someone like you out on the player who didn't get greeted, I would drag them up and then give them a one-on-one greeting outside of greeting hours and drag anyone else up along the way to do it with us.

PY: I like that greeting doesn't happen. Have greeting can happen at any time if you greeted.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: And I mean, uh, some people had put their foot down and been like, no, I'm not walking all the way up to the greeter station. I've, I've got something I've gotta do in half an hour's time. So I would also just greet them on the spot there.

Just say, look, I just think it's so important and you don't need to be on the greeter station either. Um, and then the pack down at the end, we had also a lot of help with DPW because there's some things that you just require machines [01:16:00] for, but everything just went into a, um, container and got stored out on site and we did a bit of an inventory checkoff.

And then generally we got all the greatest together for a, I guess, lessons learned, meaning afterwards, where we can share the stories of great experiences that we had while greeting and anything that we thought could be improved or, um, changed for the year after.

PY: Hmm. So it sounds like there was a bit of a time commitment before and after, or.

The, the, uh, greeters and obviously yourself as the lead and the coordination you had to do as the lead. Sounds like there was coordination with DPW and potentially with artists as well. There's a really good opportunity to have art embodying principles at the gate, which sounds really, um, and then a bit of wash up time afterwards.

Um, not only for logistical pack up, but for, for lessons learned and that kind of,

Kate: oh, and we also collaborated with the, um, social media [01:17:00] team. And so a couple weeks out we started doing posts about the principles to say, you know, the event is, it's like countdown time. These are our principles. Here's the first principle.

And then people could jump on the chat of that and share what the principle means to them and start to think about the principles before even getting out there. Um, and again, in the, where's the Fun Guide, we would generally do a bit of a tweak every year about how the principles are shown in there and how we wanted those to be expressed, um, in that document.

PY: Hmm. Yeah. It's like, it's almost like greece's are really the number one in terms of cultural acculturation and, and education. They are, that frontline in the event are really, really important.

Kate: Yes. Frontline. And also, um, gosh, I guess the, the people that spread through the events and keep that going, um, outside of their time actually on the greeters gate as well.

PY: Mm. That's right. I guess once you've got [01:18:00] that stuck in your head and that's your role, you carry that around the paddock with you.

Kate: Yeah.

PY: You become that, that walking kind of education and, and sort of bearers of the, of the culture, which is a really cool idea.

Kate: We did and we also put the signs of that. We had sort of a script for when we crossed the line and also the principles printed out and we would put them like inside loos and stuff.

So when people are sitting there, cool, you know, a lot of the time you go to a loo to have a bit of a think or a bit of a cry and if you're looking up and you're like, oh my gosh, yeah, I just need to in my head to shut my I and cross the line again because of I've let a bunch of stuff creep in and it's bringing me down and so when I step outta this portal, loo I'm crossing the line again.

PY: Mm. That's it. You literally are crossing, crossing a line. Yeah. That can be yet again, a new beginning. The power of the new beginning again. Yeah. As you step out of the loo. Okay. That's awesome. You've given us a really, really comprehensive picture about, uh, being a [01:19:00] greeter. Uh, do you have any message for anyone listening who's a little bit, uh, unsure about, you know, look, this sounds like it could be a thing for me.

Should I sign up to do this this year? Should I dip my toe into it? Be it being the lead, or be it just being a regular greeter? Do you have anything you'd like to say to them?

Kate: Immediacy. Just honestly being a greeter changed my life. Um, from being a greeter, I also joined the committee and I also helped my husband with his art pieces, and I've helped my friends with their theme camps.

It's not exclusive. It doesn't mean you're gonna be a greeter forever. Um, and with the training, if you really hate it or you just feel really anxious or you've got a bit of stage fright, the greater leads can help you through that. But at the end of the day, if you go to a couple of meetings and you just feel like, this is not for me, you can just talk to the lead about it and switch out and be arranger or switch out and move to gate and do something different.

Um, [01:20:00] but yeah, definitely give it a go because from what I've seen, I've seen a lot of people didn't even realize their, um, performance or creative capacity until they joined the greeters. And then it really lit fire in them that after doing greeters for a year or two, allowed them to then leap out into something that was really, um, initiated all on their own and allowed them to really express their own creativity and their own gift.

And I think that's ultimately what Blaze is all about, is people finding the gift that they're, and then being able to contribute that to the community in whichever way they find. But it takes a little bit of time for you to figure out what that is and come on, the greeters station really is good time spent figuring out what your gift is.

PY: Wow. That's a really, that's a really powerful message being, doing a volunteering role and being able to discover a bit more about yourself and grow and then, you know, achieve something. Uh, that you wouldn't otherwise have been able to as a result of being involved with this [01:21:00] team. That's really fantastic.

Kate: Yeah, and we never had a greeters camp, which in a way I was always a little bit sad about because other areas had their own camps. But I think it's just a part of the nature of the greeters is that we are spread out everywhere, and I think ultimately there's probably one greeter, um, staying with each theme camp or with each area that allows them to really be the principal's advocate in that area.

And it's that really stepping stone position. So it's the nature of the beast, I suppose.

PY: Yeah, I like that idea that, um, it helps with spreading the message to have greeters kind of spread out throughout the site, throughout the teams.

Kate: Yeah.

PY: Uh, anything else we've forgotten?

Kate: I don't think so. I think, um, other than that we can just start deep diving into the, each of the principles one by one, and then how each of them interacts with each other.

But I think that's for another time.

PY: I would love to have you back on the podcast to, to go through each of those that I think that would be, that'd make [01:22:00] for an interesting time. Um, it, it's great hearing from people what each of those principles means to them and how that affected not only what they do on the paddock, but more broadly in their lives.

Will definitely get you back on to have a chat about that.

Kate: Great.

PY: Excellent. So for anyone who's interested in volunteering as either a greeter or arista's lead. Please head over to the underland au website and fill in the volunteers expression of interest form Nibbles, thanks for being on the podcast.

Kate: Thanks for having me.

PY: Coming up next is the SPAM team,

Toby big bonzaar. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast.

Toby: Hey, thank you. Thank you for having me.

PY: Uh, Toby, can you introduce yourself and tell us what you do on the Underland team? [01:23:00]

Toby: So, my name is Toby, usually known as Toby Winter Mute around the scenes, but sometimes Toby Corkindale, if you've seen me professionally. I've been working with Underland, just helping out with the, the site management team for a few years.

But for this year I'm taking over the lead coordinator role for, uh, what we call SPAM, which is, it has a few different things we abbreviate it to, um, but site planning and management or site planning and maintenance. And we're responsible for the kind of the, the setup, the strike of the whole site. So this is sort of the people who get there early and get the place ready for when everyone else turns up.

PY: I think we should say for people who aren't familiar with spam, that it's, uh, it's the underland version of DPW people, often a bit confused when we say spam. Um, I know we've, I know the name has been chosen for, to distinguish spam from DPW, but, um, yeah, some folks get a bit confused.

Toby: Certainly makes it, uh, hard to call out for crew as well because [01:24:00] everything ends up in junk mail folders.

PY: Yeah, that's, um, that's an interesting one. I, I, yeah. Who would've thought that would happen? Toby, can you just, just gimme a bit of background? How did you get started with this whole burner scene? Um, what, what, uh, what led you here back in the day?

Toby: So, I've been floating around, uh, some of sort of the outdoor rave and party scene back in the early two thousands.

Some of the orbital parties around London for a while, and then over in Australia, the doof scene. Um, but as time went by, uh, I and my friends started enjoying putting together elaborate campsites. We'd get to the point where sometimes we might be building like a geo dome with lights on, or we'd be setting up a camp with like a full theme going on.

We even got some, you know, custom things printed out flags made, um, and it was a, I think one of the rainbow serpents one year some people kind of wandered up and we're like, oh, you know, you are you official stage? Like, what is this? And we said, no, no, this is, this is just a campsite. You can [01:25:00] come in and have a drink if you like.

And we got chatting and I think they mentioned. Like, Hey, you know, you seem to really like in doing this. Did you know there's like a whole, there's a whole party you can go to where everybody does this kind of thing. Setting up like elaborate camps and that's really the thing. And I was like, that sounds great.

What is it called? And they told me about burning seed. I said, oh, that sounds interesting. Um, and so my friends and I were like, right, you know, let's get our shit together. Let's go to Burning Seed. We're gonna make a theme camp we'd never been before. Mm. And so, yeah, we turned up the first year and we're like, we had all these great big plans.

We were a bit under prepared. Got about halfway through setting up all of our stuff and realized, I think we'd left about a third of it back in Melbourne. Okay. Uh, and also realized that every other theme camp around was far more organized was, you know, they weren't just some people with a bunch of my like, you know, Mike Keys and a couple of speakers.

There was some serious theme camps going on and we were like, okay. Right. We didn't really judge things here. I think we gotta abandon our plans. Um, we strung up some hammocks and our geo dome. I set up a coffee [01:26:00] cart. Uh, but it was a great way to like meet a whole lot of people and we were like, we're gonna come back next year and do things bigger and better.

That was the start of the journey.

PY: It sounds like a good, a good effort for a first year though. Like a geodome hammocks coffee. I mean, you know, that sounds like a win to me. I mean, you know, not, not everyone has to have the full bar and sound stage and whatever else you, you want to have. It's, you know, it's more than respectable doing a first year think camp like that.

Toby: Yeah. So that was some good times. Um, and yeah. Scarily now, though, that was like over 10 years ago. Mm. So sort of time has flown by. Um, I went through, you know, working with some theme camps and doing some art projects, but yeah, by the time underland came around, decided to join the crew to help with the actual build phase, which is sort of a nice way, you know, get involved, get to know a few more people.

PY: Had, had you done much of that build phase kind of work before Underland

Toby: I'd been helping out, sometimes building art projects or setting [01:27:00] up theme camps, but not anything on the scale of, you know, an entire site though.

PY: Right.

Toby: I did have some friends in the doof scene who would put on parties for, you know, two nights out in the bush.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Toby: So it'd also been involved a little bit with the kind of setup involved there, which I think has some crossover with what we do. The spam setup as well

PY: seems to be a pretty common way into the whole kind of burning scene. Like people start off in the doof scene, you know, they do that for a while.

Maybe they get a little bit burnt out. Maybe. I sometimes feel that and then sort of migrate their way over to, to doing more burning stuff. You know, they've, they've had a, they've had enough of regular ding. Would you, would you say that just want to do something different or just, just sort of, you know, like a, a logical, um, parallel thing to do?

Toby: I think it does make sense that. If the things that you get out of the duff scene are more about that kind of the creation of something and [01:28:00] building both a community and building a space, then it's a really logical jump to make over to kind of more of the burning area instead where there's perhaps less of the just dance for 24 hours straight energy and more of a sort of, you know, have some good chats, make some interesting things.

Yeah. There's, there's more production, less just consuming, if that makes sense.

PY: Yeah. I think it, um, it becomes a little bit more about the community. I think it's sort of, you know, come for the doof safer, the community type thing. Hmm. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the whole building and, and making and preparing side of things.

Um, you mentioned a bit before about what SPAM does, but can you, can you expand that on that? What does the, the Spam fam do?

Toby: Sure. So if people are familiar with, uh, some of the bigger burning events, they'll know that there are quite a few different departments there. 'cause Underland is still running at, I guess a smaller size.

[01:29:00] Spam is a bit of a catchall organization at the moment. So we are responsible for things like sanitation, crew meals, uh, traffic management, timber collection. Mm-hmm. There's, uh, light power. All of these things fall into our basket. So this means that, you know, if you join spam you can kind of choose a bit which area you, you are working in.

Mm-hmm. And there's certainly a whole lot of different skills that Google can learn if they're interested. Mm-hmm. There's a, you know, there's some tasks that are, say, uh, sign painting might be one that we need to create a lot of those, you know, sort of smaller, more delicate work. Mm-hmm. It can also be things like, right, we need to send someone out with a 20 ton truck and come back with several trees worth of timber and small pieces go, uh, and everything in between.

Um, if you'd like, I can sort of talk to more specifics. Yeah. I guess please. I'm never quite sure how much detail. Yeah. Uh, so obviously some of the critical things we need to do are [01:30:00] lay out where the festival boundaries are, where the roads will be. We need to mark things like emergency exits. Mm-hmm. We need to make sure those are well listened signposted.

We need to set up where toilets will go and then as well, regularly we need to keep an eye on those, make sure they're topped up with water. Mm-hmm. You get to play with some sort of fun firefighting equipment to do that if you're interested.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Toby: Um, there's definitely the timber collection side of things as people may know there are burn barrels that underland for warm and fire.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and so we'll go around to some of the nearby properties where we have mission to collect fallen trees and timber mm-hmm. And then cut those all down into smaller sizes and bring them all back to back to base. Mm-hmm. There's the sign production, as I mentioned, as well as putting those up.

Another part that's pretty critical is power and power management. So we'll be running power cables from the generator or generators [01:31:00] out to, uh, not the theme camps themselves, but things like ranges, sanctuary. Yep. Center cam. Yep. Uh, we'll be putting up some lighting, giving them some power, and then we need to keep, you know, manage those as well during the event, making sure that things are refueled and running safely throughout.

Hmm. And then of course, one of the last, but definitely not least, is crew meals.

PY: Ah, yes.

Toby: So we don't feed people during the event mm-hmm. But in the, the run up to the event, when we have the crew doing the setup or after the event, during strike, we feed you. Uh, and this is, you know, obviously very important, but also can be a bit elaborate when you're managing, you know, meals, say three meals a day for up to 25 people is, uh, quite the thing.

Yeah. And is always a bit of a challenge each year, but I think we get better each time as well.

PY: Hmm. I've, um, in past years I've always found the, um, crew food to be really good. It's, [01:32:00] uh, it's the sort of cooking that I like.

Toby: I'm very glad to hear that. Yeah. We've always had like good reports back and there's always been plenty to go around.

PY: That's true. Not short on quantity. So, uh, yeah. Big eaters more than welcome. Can you tell me a bit more about what kind of people you're looking for for the SPAM team? Um, you've mentioned that there's a wide variety of tasks, everything from small, delicate work to, you know, uh, if you have a, a truck license to drive a 20 ton truck, that'd be good.

Um, but, you know, if people are thinking about volunteering, um, what's, what sort of skills, uh, are needed by spam team at the moment?

Toby: So you, we would, one of the things which is possibly the biggest requirement is we're looking for people who can actually come up to site ahead of time. Yeah. So we do need people who can come up.

We are flexible on this, but we'd really like it if people can come up a week before the event mm-hmm. As a [01:33:00] minimum, um, since there's a little bit of, you know, time it takes to induct people and get you into the swing of things. Mm-hmm. We are also quite interested in if we can get a few people who only come for the event, we would like some help.

During the event to do some of the regular tasks. Um, so things like just checking up on the toilets Yep. Putting in new toilet rolls. There's a few shifts like that during the event where we would always love to have more people even if you can't come up early. Mm-hmm. For the folks who can, uh, we usually head up, uh, I think it'll be possibly the 14th of September this year.

Mm-hmm. But it is totally fine for people to come in a little bit after that as essentially, you know, the people who get in there first might be kind of beginning to get a bit tired, and then you get some people coming in five days later and they're all fresh. Yeah. Can actually be quite good to bring in new energy and, and then ideally you need to be, uh, somewhat able bodied.

I would say, like there's definitely a lot of wandering around on the site and [01:34:00] doing things that needs a little bit of physical exertion, but at the same time it's not excessive. Uh, there's, you know, a very big difference. Like there might be some people out there manhandling, uh, giant trees. Mm-hmm. There might also be some people out there who, as I said, you know, we're making signs, we're sorting out some of the more, you know, the electrical components, wiring up the wifi cabling and things like that.

Mm-hmm. Where. You know, you don't have to be a, uh, a super strong person to be part of spam. Mm. There really are roles that will suit almost everyone.

PY: Yeah. So it, it seems like that, um, you know, if, if people do want a role that's a little bit more perhaps, you know, sitting at a table under a bit of shade, um, you know, they can be accommodated in the team as well.

Toby: That's right. And ideally, it's good to have a mixture of people around, I feel.

PY: Hmm. One thing I've noticed, um, going to the event early and leaving late, is that the, the whole complexion of the experience [01:35:00] is, I feel very different for me. Um, the event is, is longer, it's spread over a period of time, and I really, um, enjoy the, the pre and and post-event when it, it's quieter.

And you're working with the tight team. Um, what, what's it that you like about the whole ex spam experience? You know, being there before, after, in the middle, uh, what, what do you like about it? What do you think that, um, you know, might appeal to volunteers being part of the team?

Toby: I think I mentioned before about how moving from kind of the doof community through to the, the burning community mm-hmm.

Was a bit about having those, uh, more emphasis on the community side of it. Yeah. And I think that by, uh, joining the setup and strike crews, you're leveling that up even further. Mm. You're spending a lot more time with people and really getting to have some good chats. Getting to know people in, you know, like a, a more sort of.

I guess more low, like a more relaxed environment perhaps than during the event. [01:36:00] Yeah. I find once the event's running, the music's playing, everybody's in a rush everywhere. Has somewhere to be, yeah. You get some brief conversations in, whereas if you're up there earlier on the site, you'll be out there wandering the paddock, setting up some bunting.

Yeah. And you can just have some good chats, find out a bit more about some people while you're at it. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that's like a pretty nice positive. Mm-hmm. You also just generally get this feeling of, uh, like you're out there, you are camping in the wilderness and initially it is just you and the kangaroos roaming around with a few other people.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Toby: And it does feel a lot more like you are camping in, sort of in nature in the countryside. Once the event kicks off, it's, you know, so much denser. There's people everywhere, there's stuff going on. Uh, so it can be quite nice to have that more peaceful break in the runup as well.

PY: Mm-hmm. Along with that, I think maybe having that peaceful time after the event as well.

E even when people are a bit tired, it almost serves as a bit of [01:37:00] a, um, bit of a reintegration time. Like, you're sort of still there, but things are less hectic. Things are in packed down mode, you know? Would you say that you feel that way as well? It kind of helps ease back into the default world a bit

Toby: actually, yes.

I, I definitely agree with that. It always used to feel almost too abrupt leaving at the end of the event. Yes. Getting in your car and driving home alone. Being able to hang out with a few people afterwards and sort of as you pack things down gradually the numbers drop off again. But it definitely does feel like a, a nicer way to reintegrate.

PY: It's kind of a tapered thing going from quiet to hectic and then back to, to quiet at the end. Okay. Lastly, uh, any other message you have to the community about the, the team in general?

Toby: I guess one of them is if you are, if you are considering coming along, like we'd always welcome new ideas and to new ways to improve what we have.

Mm-hmm. We've been working with a quite a small [01:38:00] team each year. Mm-hmm. And so sometimes there are trade-offs in what we could do. Mm-hmm. Uh, it would be great to start having more specialists in our team where we could start to say, okay, we might have a dedicated kitchen crew or a dedicated structure crew.

Yep. Dedicated power crew, sanitation, traffic. Yep. So if you have a particular interest in leading an area, uh, it'd be great to get involved 'cause this is your opportunity to come in and just start a new area from Greenfield if you're interested.

PY: Hmm. I think that's a really good one. 'cause quite often it, it's sort of something you hear in the car on the way out of an event, people say, this has been good, but I really think this team really needs to do something differently.

And if you have that idea, this could be your chance to do that something and make the difference.

Toby: Exactly. It's great to get in on the ground level.

PY: Hmm. Toby, what's the best way that people can get in contact you if they would like to be on the spam team?

Toby: [01:39:00] So, uh, first of all, I'd a call out for, uh, please come a member of Common Arts Victoria.

Ah, that's right. Hopefully if you're listening to this podcast, you might be already, but if not common arts.org au and you can join up there as a member. You'll get access to our Slack system where you can chat with us. Mm-hmm. However, if you'd prefer to just chat via email, that's also totally fine.

Mm-hmm. There is a contact us page on the website as well. I think scroll down somewhere near the bottom, you can write some messages in there and they will go to, uh, all of the key members. So you'll get through to me eventually.

PY: Gotcha.

Toby: Uh, and then we can chat by email or whatever form you like.

PY: Excellent. Sounds pretty easy. Okay, Toby, uh, thanks for being on the pod and, um, I look forward to seeing you at Underland 2025.

Toby: Likewise. Look forward to seeing you there. Thank you.

PY: Up next is the sanitation team.[01:40:00]

Lara, welcome to the bonzaar podcast. How are you today?

Lara: I'm great, thanks.

PY: Thanks for coming on. Um, I've been scrambling around trying to find someone and, uh, you have graciously stepped into the fold to talk about sanitation for us today.

Lara: Oh, I'm always happy to talk about toilets and sanitation. It's one of my passions.

PY: Your pet, your pet topic. Okay. So now to be clear here, everyone, you are not the sanitation lead for UNDERLAND 2025, but you are here as my very knowledgeable sanitation person, uh, as a placeholder to talk about what being on the sanitation team involved, because we will pretty soon hopefully have a sanitation lead and maybe we can talk a bit about that role as well.

Lara: Yeah, absolutely. I am not currently the sanitation lead for Underland and I'm hoping that I can encourage someone to fill in that role 'cause it's something that I've done for other burns and got so much appreciation from the community for doing that. Mm-hmm. And had so [01:41:00] much growth in myself, learning so many skills, doing something that I never saw myself in that role.

But I'm very glad I got into that role

PY: and developed a fearsome reputation. I might say. We still, um, underlying, we still refer to things as we do that the Lara way. That's the Lara way Interesting of doing things and, and various, various little, uh, innovations as well, like Lara Sticks, that's that sort of common pilot about how we we do things.

But, but anyway. We'll, we'll get onto that. Before, before we get there, can you, um, give us a bit of a, a background on, on how you got into the whole burning scene? When did this all begin?

Lara: So I, I met someone down in Tassie who encouraged me to come to my first burn. Mm-hmm. So I went to Burning Seed in about 2014 of 2013.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Lara: And had such a wonderful, magical experience. I was like, I need to get involved in the creation of this event because it just blew my mind. I met so many really lovely people that remained friends to this day, and I wanted to [01:42:00] help keep that community growing and be alive. Mm-hmm. So I volunteered in the Build Crew the following year, and we were also responsible for cleaning the toilets during the event.

And it just felt like a, a big job that kind of needed to be its own crew. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and there was a few things that we weren't doing very well. We just had port loos, but we maybe didn't have enough port loos and they weren't being cleaned very regularly. So there was a lot of drama and trauma around using the Portos at that event that I saw could be avoided.

Mm-hmm. So I started the sanitation team, became the sanitation lead Wow. For that following year.

PY: So, straight away you saw a problem on your first year and then stepped in to, to fix the problem straight away in the second year.

Lara: Yeah. Which is I think, how a lot of the team leads end up becoming team leads.

Mm. You, you see a, a need in a community and you seem to have the drive to do it, and there's so much support in the rest of the team that if you wanna jump into a role that's [01:43:00] maybe even slightly a stretch for you at the time, there's so much support. Institutional knowledge to, to help get you there.

PY: Mm.

And was it a stretch for you at the time? Was it sort of, were you a little bit uncertain about taking on the role? At the time?

Lara: I was a little bit because I hadn't really done any logistics work before. Mm. I, I didn't know how a portally functioned. I didn't know how a, a water pump functioned to fill up the toilets.

Mm. I have a nursing background, so I knew we needed toilets and I understood the, the hygiene around having good toilets mm-hmm. And needing to keep them clean. But as for the, the operations of a, a Porto was very much outside my knowledge at the time.

PY: Mm-hmm. So it was a case of learning on the job, learning from people who already knew their way around festivals and how this sort of infrastructure works.

How, how did you get knowledge?

Lara: Yeah. There was some people in the DPI crew who had been dealing with the Portos and they were very happy to share all their knowledge how [01:44:00] to hook up a trailer that I hadn't hooked up a trailer before in my life. So all of that sort of stuff was just passed on from, from other team leads and other people who were part of the crew.

And, you know, just a little bit of Googling as well, didn't, didn't go astray. Um, and it really wasn't long before I felt very confident knowing how to deal with the portal Lou and, um, fill up a port loo and all the things necessary for that and how many toilet rolls you need. Mm. Um, how many liters of water you need.

You know, all of that stuff. And now we have all of that knowledge in the burn community. It'd be so easy to jump in. To that role with all of that knowledge already set.

PY: That's it. That's another really important part of the, the lead role here. It's actually the, the kind of algorithm you have in your head.

Now. This has been a, a topic of discussion in past years for, for how many people, how many toilets and how much toilet paper, and how much pumping out do you need to, you know, get done. It's kind of this algorithm I know you have in your head to calculate exactly how much do you need. 'cause you don't wanna, you know, overspend, you don't [01:45:00] wanna, certainly don't wanna underspend and leave yourself short on what it's Exactly, yeah.

So it's that, it's that numbers side of things.

Lara: Yep. Which that algorithm, algorithm is, uh, written down and easily shared. Mm. It's not a big deal anymore.

PY: Mm.

Lara: Yeah. And how many crew you need to help you with that job because it's not something you really wanna be doing on your own. You wanna be encouraging other people to come with you and have fun.

PY: Mm.

Lara: And, uh, you know, little bit of people skills,

PY: mmm,

Lara: skills is needed to, to help keep that crew momentum going.

PY: Mm. Yeah. That crew wrangling and remotivation. I, I think it's a, a role, sanitation is a role that kind of, people think about it and they shy away from the role. There's a little bit of an itch factor, and I think a lot of people don't really know what it, what it involves, because it's not actually that yucky or that onerous when it comes down to it.

There is, I mean, sure you're dealing with toilets, but. [01:46:00] Most of the time it's more monitoring and restocking, if I remember correctly.

Lara: Yeah, exactly. Very rarely do you come across a situation where it needs much cleaning. It's just a, you know, grab a bit of the toilet paper, bit of hand sanitizer or spray, wipe the surfaces down, restock the toilet paper, and you know, get clapped on the way out.

Mm. And thanked by everyone who's around waiting for toilets. And that's really the majority of the job. Mm. Sometimes you'll come across something that needs a clean, and then, you know, you, you're gonna be there with the fire pump at some point to fill up the toilets, or you get a contractor in to fill up the water.

They can just give it a spray down. The whole portal thing being washed out is, it's really simple. You just spray the whole thing down. Mm. Wipe wipe it down, you're done.

PY: Yeah. It's all plastic. It's, it's, you, you can't, you can't hurt the things.

Lara: Yep. If you've ever cleaned your toilet at home, it's the same, like, it doesn't really get much worse than that.

PY: No. And you know, if they do get [01:47:00] full and need pumping out, that's not something we do anyway. That's up. That's, uh, something a contractor does for us. Exactly. Yep. In that case, if things are full up, it's a case of just locking that particular toilet to say, this one's full, please don't use this one. And then coordinating with the contractor to

make sure that one gets pumped out.

Lara: Yep. Exactly. Yep. The hardest part of the job is delegating where. You need to. Mm-hmm. And, and keeping the crew morale alive. Mm-hmm. And really that's, that's a super simple job if you, if you make it fun. So one of the things that I really like to do, the banks of toilets are distributed around the event site.

Mm-hmm. And you need to ideally touch every bank maybe a couple times a day. Yep. So there's a fair bit of like going between the banks and I used to go on a little bit of a theme camp trip or like an art tour when you go from bank to bank and you know, you can have quite a lot of fun because you don't need to [01:48:00] do it on a really tight schedule.

That's right. You can, yeah. You don't have to run from place to place. It's not like gate where you're stuck at gate and you're in a certain four hour block where you, you're doing your job in that four hours. You can, you can wander around and make it fun.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Lara: Play before work.

PY: Yeah. Okay. I like it. Yeah.

It can be done on a bit more of a, a relaxed schedule and potentially with a vehicle too, if there's a site vehicle available. You don't physically have to trek the, the paddock with a Santa sack full of, of toilet paper or actually exactly. Not even, not even trekking it around. 'cause underland, we try to do the self-service loose thing, which again was one of your innovations.

Lara: Yeah. How good is it just being able to put a clear plastic box with toilet paper and some supplies in it, and then if someone comes to the loo and we haven't been around to do our trip yet mm-hmm. They can just self-serve and clean the toilet and restock. If you spread that effort. To maintain toilets to the rest of the community.[01:49:00]

It puts less weight on the, the crew that have to go around. Like there's still necessary to have one person having a bit of oversight over the entire system to make sure that the system doesn't fall down. But if you can delegate some of that job of keeping them clean and stocked to the people who are using them, that seems logical.

PY: Yeah. And in my experience, it's worked really well. We have those plastic tote totes there with the toilet paper, the hand sanitizer, some cleaning supplies in there, and I think the occasional sign that says, welcome to the sanitation team, cheekily, like, everyone's on the sanitation team now and it works.

Yeah. People end up adopting a little bank of Portos near them and looking after them. People will come and tell you if the tote in needs filling up with toilet paper, um, it, and you know, people will take the, the old little cardboard rolls, um, out of the toilets and pop them in their tote in forest. It works really well, like this whole yeah.[01:50:00]

Self-service model. Who would've thought burners are actually, you know, pretty responsible and, and good at looking after, you know their shit and, and looking out for others as well. You know, ideal world, each toilet bank needs to be seen to twice a day or top up of paper and potentially water as well.

What else? Would being on the sanitation team involved. Apart from that, uh, we talked about contractors. Contractors will come in to do a pump once or twice throughout the event, so I know they have to be guided around to make sure they do pump out every block. But is there anything apart from that, that that needs to be done during the event?

If you are on the sanitation team,

Lara: not as part of the team. So if you're just one of the team members mm-hmm. Just going around, ideally you would have a bit of a roster set before. Mm-hmm. So you'll know which schedule you are expected [01:51:00] to turn up to and partake in. Mm-hmm. But no, other than that, having fun and going around and cleaning your bank of toilets on your schedule is really all the commitment that's needed for a general team member.

PY: Pretty simple. And it's one of those roles that really does get a lot of love from the community. Oh yeah. You'll be, they're very obviously doing something in service of the event and people will love you for it.

Lara: Absolutely. I've been given cocktails and like offers for massages and, uh, people dancing for me, always hand clapping and like bowing down to me.

It's, it's kind of embarrassing subtypes. I'm like, I don't, I don't need this praise. I'm just cleaning your toilet. It's Okay.

PY: Nice. And is there any time. Commitment required for a team member before or after gate opens or is it mainly during [01:52:00] while the event is running

Lara: for the crew? Definitely just in gate opening hours.

Mm-hmm. For the team lead, there'd be a little bit of requirement to negotiate with DPI or the site team just to figure out whether you are needed to manage the crew toilets or not. Sometimes the site team are just happy to do that on their own if you're not available. Um, it would depend how the contractor and DPI or site relationship works out during that particular event.

Whether you are needed to work with a contractor beforehand or not, sometimes site team is happy to take on that responsibility 'cause they're already dealing with the contractor for other equipment needs. So working with DPI beforehand to figure out your requirement and time commitment would be necessary to really decide that.

Mm. In, in previous, when I've done sanitation running things like making sure the rosters are [01:53:00] organized and making sure the toilet paper order is in and that we've got enough hand sanitizer just requires. A couple of hours in the weeks lead up and maybe before that, just doing those little check-ins with the site lead, you know, an hour a fortnight, or two hours a fortnight, just to make sure everyone's on the same page and all of the necessary equipment is organized beforehand.

Um, yeah. So it's not a huge commitment for that role. Mm. And it's very easily negotiated with the other team leads to see what can be lumped together with other infrastructure and equipment needs that are already being organized.

PY: Hmm. That's a really good point because I think whoever takes on this role can expect a lot of really good support, especially from spam team.

There is the inventory of stuff that's already available and that includes the cleaning products, the tote bins, uh, the existing toilet paper supplies and signage as well. So that's all well [01:54:00] inventoried and in the shipping container and ready to go. So it'll be just a question of touching base with the spam lead and seeing what's there ready and what needs to be purchased.

So it should be pretty simple really.

Lara: Yeah. It makes it so easy. Yeah. Yep.

PY: In terms of the team, have you found that volunteers who come on to take part in the sanitation team tend to stay and form, you know, you end up forming a core team year to year.

Lara: Yeah, absolutely. People always wanna come back because it's a, it's a good sign.

Well loved role. Yeah. You get so much appreciation and it's really not a lot of time commitment. For the level of appreciation you get. And it's a very simple job. It doesn't require a lot of brain. So if you've had a big night the night before, it's not hard.

PY: Oh, good point. Yeah. That really is an important one.

You can, this one doesn't. Yeah. You can, unless you're driving the vehicle, you, you maybe can get away with being a, a little bit less, less sharp than you might otherwise be.

Lara: Yep. So it doesn't stop you from having a really fun night the night before. Hmm. As long as you show up, [01:55:00] you're, you're very useful.

PY: Excellent. That's a really good sign that, uh, you're able to form a crew and they return year after year because they, you know, had a good time and want to be part of that, that same team. It's really good.

Lara: Yeah, and you know what, even when we don't have quite enough crew, um, sometimes you don't quite have enough and you're walking around the paddock, people will join last minute.

They'll see that you don't quite have enough hands and they'll be like, I, I have the capacity to help you guys with this right now. Can I join the team? Mm, absolutely. And those people will still come back year after year as well. They join once

PY: ad hoc recruitment. Fantastic.

Lara: Yep.

PY: Have you ever had any really good, uh, sanitation team schwag for your crews?

Lara: Oh yeah. We have had great little patches say taking care of shit. Oh, brilliant. And we had some flags that we'd put on the, the ute that you could see from around the paddocks. You could see when we were driving around. Mm-hmm. I'm, um, [01:56:00] a fan of the saying, you're either a swag whore or a liar.

PY: It's so true.

It's so true. That's a really good idea. I think we should, um, put some effort into the team swag this year, and it would be great if the sanitation crew can have their own little bit of, uh, distinct swag that's different from spam to, uh, yep. To designate the fact that they've taken on a subset of duties that normally is overlooked.

It's been appreciated.

Lara: Yep. It really can make or break an event having good toilets. One of the first times I ever went to a big event and that there wasn't quite enough portaloos and they weren't very well maintained, and the event was great.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Lara: But the struggle of having to wait for a toilet and then use a toilet that was dirty and wet, just really upset my flow in that event.

Like, I was really wanted to get back to watch the show that I had ducked away from [01:57:00] to use the loo, and I thought I was gonna be gone for, you know, 10 minutes. But, you know, 45 minutes later I go back and I'm just a little bit frustrated and annoyed and it, it really can ruin an experience having a bad toilet event.

PY: Yeah. It's literally a, a hygiene factor in terms of your ability to stay in that immediacy and enjoy what's going on.

Lara: Yeah. Yeah. So let's aim for some really well-maintained clean toilets, that there's plenty to go around.

PY: Thanks for your descriptions of this role. Um, you really sold it. I, I almost, you know, keep on getting people on onto the podcast and I think, oh, this is actually, this actually sounds really good.

I would like to be on that team this year, and I'm, I'm having that feeling now. So thank you for giving us that, that wonderful description of what it's like to be on the sanitation team and what is what it involves to be the sanitation team lead as well.

Lara: You're welcome. Thanks for asking me all these questions.

It gets me excited about doing things again too.

PY: And so if [01:58:00] people are interested in becoming a member of the sanitation team, they can head over to the Underland website, which is underland au and fill in the volunteers expression of interest form there, or email crew@commonarts.org au. While we're here, let's just give a little shout out for PACT and Aurora, because everyone's excited to go to the Tassie Burn.

Can you just give us a quick 30 seconds on, on when it's gonna be and what it's gonna be about?

Lara: Yeah, so we've got Aurora happening down southern Tasmania from the 5th of November this year. Mm-hmm. We've got our site organized and it's about a half an hour from the Hobart airport.

PY: Oh, that's really close.

Lara: Yeah. But we're on a. Kind of bushy block with a little creek running through it. We've got loads of theme camp applications already coming in, and we're also looking for a sanitation team lead at the moment,

PY: Uhhuh. [01:59:00]

Lara: Um, but we have all the other team leads sorted, so we've got a good crew, good solid crew start.

Um, and we'll soon be putting tickets on sale. So keep an eye out for those.

PY: And I see that the website for Aurora Burn is Aurora Burn, spelled A-U-R-O-R-A-B-E-R n.org au. And there you'll be able to find the volunteer signup form, theme camp application form, and more information about tickets coming shortly.

Excellent, Lara. Thanks for that. Any last messages for anyone thinking about jumping onto the volunteers team and getting into the, uh, getting into a sanitation volunteer role this year?

Lara: If you're thinking about it, just go ahead and do it. If you're not sure about your time commitments, but you, you think you've got some time, just do it.

It'll, it'll work out. And if your plans change and you don't, can't do that particular role anymore, we can redistribute [02:00:00] you into a different team. Just any kind of volunteering at this event is very much worth it. You will have such a great time. It is by far the best way to burn.

PY: Absolutely. You'll get so much more out of it.

Laura, thanks for coming on the podcast today. I look forward to seeing you at Underland and Aurora.

Lara: Heck yeah.

PY: Coming up next. Leave no trace team

Per, welcome to the bonzaar podcast. How you doing today?

Per: Great, thank you. PY, how are you?

PY: Good, good. Uh, for our beautiful listeners, can you introduce yourself and tell us what you do at Underland?

Per: Sure thing. Um, so my name's Per. I have been going to burns, uh, for probably the last, uh, sort of 9, 8, 9, 10 years or so.

And, uh, I hadn't done a whole lot, um, in terms of, um, [02:01:00] being involved in set up or or crew at that stage. But, um, when I heard that there was a Victorian burns starting up in 20, well, I heard about it in 2020 to after the, in inaugural burn for Underland. Um, I just dropped in and said, you know, they were looking for folks to lead a few different departments.

So I was like, yeah, I'm into resource efficiency and resource management and mm-hmm um, all those sorts of bits and pieces. So I thought l and t leave no trace, um, would be a really good fit. Um. About those sorts of things and minimizing our impact on the, on the planet and mm-hmm. Um, yeah, and it's, you know, it's, it's both a, uh, a, you know, an environmental thing, but it's also a visual thing.

It's a, it's a great, you know, having a really beautiful, clean, um, events. Um, yeah, it's pretty inspiring, I guess you, you know, you can kind of look at other events and compare them, but, um, [02:02:00] seeing some things from Glastonbury today, um, yes. But yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's pretty, it was a pretty awesome, um, little event.

So yeah, I've joined, came in and did it at the subsequent year in 2024, which is last year, and mm-hmm. I'm taking, yeah, again, leads in 2025 this year.

PY: Excellent.

Per: So yeah, that's how I got into underland.

PY: Hmm. Those sort of concerns you had about resources and, uh, you know, looking after the site, uh, and that kind of thing, were those kind of things that were top of your mind way back in the day when you first kind of got started in the scene?

Were those things that you'd seen? Yeah, I think so. In comparisons to other festivals where you just sort of see a. A field of like, almost like a literal dump left behind the dump ground you seek?

Per: Um, yeah, I think it's, it has always been, um, and I, I think I kind of interfaced a bit with, uh, burning seeds, [02:03:00] um, leave no trace sort of outcomes, like their reports and bits and pieces and yeah, I was pretty impressed.

So, um, yeah, uh, I could sort of see where things could go for underland and um, yeah, when you get in at the ground level as well on, on projects then, you know, you can sort of create a bit more effect and change and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, so it was pretty, pretty interesting that, that way. And, you know, and the crew and the crew when I joined were, you know, fantastic.

They were really welcoming and, um, supportive. Helped me sort of set up a few bits and pieces. Um, helped out with signage. Yeah, just resourcing where to find stuff, um, how to get stuff done, who to talk to. It was really, yeah, it was, it was fantastic. And I, you know, when I first turned up, I turned up at the event for the first time, never hadn't been to it, and, um, just dropped straight into the role and, yeah, really good.

PY: So you mentioned, uh, burning seed. Was that your first burn back in day? [02:04:00] Was that your first kind of exposure to things? This is sort of, yeah, before my time.

Per: Yeah. I think like 2017 or 16, I can't quite remember. Um, 2017 it was. And yeah, and I, you know, was aware of the promotion around Leave No Trace. So that was pretty important, like in terms of, um, the things to bring and things to not bring.

Um, so that became very apparent. And then, you know, just observing the event and seeing how little there was, um, in terms of like, just how clean everything was and how well managed and organized it all was. It was really inspiring. So take a, it's,

PY: it's impressive when you, when you are one of the last people to leave site and you kind of look back and you're like, damn, it's like, it's, you know, it is literally very,

Per: it's very satisfying.

PY: Then we find, we found it.

Per: Yeah. Yeah. Like, um, I mean, Underland, as we go through each site, every site go through the same site every years. Like we're, we're cleaning up stuff that was there before we arrived, sort of agricultural waste. Um, you know, like, [02:05:00] um, yeah, all sorts of bits and pieces like wire and, um, fencing clips, things like that.

Um, ear tags, things like that. But, um, yeah, they were there before we even arrived. So we've actually, yeah, technically we're sort of leading the site in a better state than we even found it. So, and that's, that's the role, that's what, that's what Leave No Trace does.

PY: I think we do, um, a good amount of, uh, fuel reduction and, uh, fence line maintenance as well each year inadvertently with our firewood run.

That serves quite a, a dual purpose there. Yeah.

Per: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Yeah.

PY: As well as getting, I don't know. Six tons of firewood or whatever we get. It's a, yeah, it's not a small amount, so yeah.

Per: No, no, no, it's not. And it's, that's, yeah. That's, that's an important, important function to keep everyone warm in the middle of, well, it's not quite winter, but early spring

PY: it still is a little bit chilly at night, isn't it?

Per: It's still pretty chilly

PY: cold. People like me definitely need it. Um, okay. Can we, can we talk about the nuts and bolts [02:06:00] of leave? No Trace. I'm just actually looking at the, the Burning Man principles here. Mm-hmm. Our community respects the environment We are committed to leaving no physical trace of our activities.

Wherever we gather, we clean up after ourselves and endeavor where possible to leave the places in a better state than when we found them exactly what we said. Yes. Yeah. Te tell me about the nuts and bolts. What does the, what does the leave no trace team do?

Per: Um, yeah, so I guess the, the main pro is, is to ensure that there's minimal rubbish on the ground.

I, that's sort of like, that's the nuts and bolts and there's that sort of sense. Um, but the way we do it, like, we're not there to sort of clean up after other people. We, our role is to encourage people to, uh, clean up after themselves.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Per: You know, we do that sort of in terms of like reminding events, pre-event, the reminding people what to bring and what not to bring.

I, I see you sequins, but. Sliding in sometimes and disappearing into the grass. Yep. But you're very easy to find 'cause you're bright and colored, [02:07:00] so things like that. Yeah. Feathers, um, sequence. Um, yeah, just, you know, looking after the, uh, the things that are sort of incidental, like things that you wouldn't intentionally drop, but that do happen.

Um, not that she would be intentionally, um, um, littering, but it sort of, you know, in that sort of sense. Yeah. So, yeah, so there's, there's, uh, there's that sort of promotion side of things, and we do that through signage and we do that through posts on, on the communications, through emails and, and, um, socials posting that goes on before the event so people can remember what to bring and what not to bring.

PY: Mm-hmm.

Per: So, and then during the event we do some monitoring, um, just, uh, sort of ad hoc monitoring just to sort of see what's going on if we, if we notice things, um, on the ground, just as we're going through during the, you know, after the gate's open and all that sort of stuff. Um,

PY: oh, that's right. I remember your proactive monitoring in the form of your moop bin chicken.

That was, [02:08:00] that was, yeah, that was memorable. That was, that was definitely that issue coming,

Per: coming back for a visit. Yeah. They, they were gonna be there last year and, um, there's some technical difficulties. They, uh, weren't able to make it, but, uh, yes, there's a, there's a little flock of, of, um, Royal ibis.

Thank you very much everybody. They're not bin chickens. Um, no, they're, um, I, yeah, I gave them the name, the Moop, the Moop Birds, but essentially, uh, just some roving performers, um, walking the paddock and helping, helping people clean up, um, finding Moop and seeing they can find a human to match it up with, uh, to pick it up.

PY: It was, sorry,

I don't quite know why it was really effective and almost a bit, it was kind of dunno why I found it a little bit spooky as well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, vocalisations were a bit like, like

Per: the character is, is pretty, is pretty funny. And I mean, binge chickens are pretty funny anyway. But, [02:09:00] um, yeah, I had some great, great interactions with people.

Uh, kids, kids loved it. But, you know, without explaining exactly what it is that I'm doing and communicating it, then I'm just sort of assuming people. Um, yeah,

PY: I think it's a certain point. People get on this team and then you'll be able to take out this kind of, alright.

Yeah.

Okay. Alright, here we go.

Alright. So

Per: it's, alright. So there's a, there's an opening position. I've got one other, I've got one other person to fill. Um, there, there should be three birds myself. Well, not admitting that I'm a bird, but, um, no, I, so there, yeah, I, I'd love, I'd love an extra, uh, bird or two. I'll, I'll just need to set up a, um, a costume for them.

So, um, get in touch soon so you can become part of this. That'd be great.

PY: And, and maybe you need to audition to be able to do the, the voice. Yeah. Well, because not everyone's got the vocal range to do the, this is true. Kinda like, whoop

God, it's coming back to me. It was really,

Per: yeah, it's coming back to me too. [02:10:00] Oh, that's hilarious. So, and I mean, what that, what, what the, what the Moot Bird is kind of doing in a way is, is also contributing to the, the sec, the, the other main sort of activity that we, that the Leave No Trace team does, which is the MOOP sweep.

Yep. So that basically takes place, um, after Gates close and everybody, not everybody, but the vast majority of, of punters at least have gone home. They might, there'll still be a bit of stick, um, of the spam team, that being, uh, um, site preparation and, um, management and yeah. So it's sort of like maybe two to three, three to four hours of walking the paddock, basically.

Mm-hmm. Uh, doing, doing the search line, pretending that we're, um, um, bill of Heal is doing a, uh, a search and rescue, uh, evidence search or something like that. It's a little bit, it, it's a bit like an evidence search because it's a,

PY: there's sort of a documentation aspect there is to it as well.

Per: Yes. There is a documentation and as long as your data is kept in [02:11:00] tact, then you could prepare a report that sort of, uh, that, that, that creates some output for, um, for, yeah, it's just a report basically of how, how things have gone.

Um, unfortunately there was, um, a loss and, um, last year and I have, um. Yes. Uh, managed to lose, um, a fair bit of the data that was involved in that. So I've had to sort of pull up a, a slightly more restricted, uh, report. But, um, okay. Yeah, we should be fine This year we've got a better system for next year deal.

PY: A little bit more fine grained this year than, than last year is what I'm hearing.

Per: Yes, yes. Yeah,

PY: we should explain that bit more detail to people who haven't seen a moop map before. It's basically a, it's a map. Is it color coded showing?

Per: Yeah, it's sort of like a heat map. I guess. That's, uh, that's, that's what we went for with the first year is, is setting up a heat map so you can sort of see how much, um, so we literally ID each piece of, um, Moop, which is already explained what Moop is.

I don't think we have,

PY: oh God, we haven't, sorry, folks.

Per: Mo Moop is, [02:12:00] yeah. Um, it's my fault. Um, Moop is matter out of place, um, which basically just denotes anything that's, um, material that's on the ground that shouldn't be there or could also extend beyond that. We do have a sort of a policy around land art or, or underland as a policy around land art.

But while you can, uh, you can certainly use the materials that, uh, is in the landscape. We want the site to be returned to as it was before. So while you might build something and you might use some of the natural materials that you find, and even if you don't even, you construct other things. Mm-hmm.

You're expected to return the site to, um, its previous state. So just what it looked like before you got here. So, yeah, it's just some things around that sort of, sort of complexity around what exactly we mean about, um, matter out of place.

PY: Hmm.

Per: So, yeah, so the moop, uh, the moop sweep basically entails yeah.

Taking, uh, getting record of each, um, p practically every, um, piece [02:13:00] of, of MOOP that we find on the ground and recording it and then giving it a geo, getting a geotag on it so we can map that data. And then, yeah, that, that basically would, would create this sort of heat map so you can kind of see where material was, um, left behind.

And, um, yeah, it, it provides a, it provides a pretty good, well initial baseline as well, but also, uh, post event, you can sort of see what's, um, what's going on.

PY: I, I know in the US they use their moop map. It's almost a bit of a, um, uh, you know, checkup on how the theme camps went. You know, how'd you guys go with Moop?

Um, yeah. Is there anything we need to, to, to have a talk about in terms of Yeah. Okay. You guys had a. You know, a mass cupcake party, and then there was 4 billion cupcake wrappers, like on the or, or just on the ground.

Per: There were million. There were billions of hundreds of thousands on the ground. That's something like that.

I mean, even no, well, food, you know, people might sort of go, oh, food [02:14:00] is, you know, it'll break down. It'll stay. I mean, we, you know, most of us are pretty aware that, you know, leaving food out, it's, it's not ideal also for native animals and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, they, they contain compounds that, you know, all sort of, all sorts of different places.

So, yeah, food for example, is, is something we do, we still sort of take seriously. So, um, recall that

PY: That's right because, um, that is one of the con considerations, isn't it? It is a, a working farm. So there will be, you know, intermittently, obviously native animals going through that attic, but also grazing animals.

I, I remember one year I was talking about, oh, we'll just put wood chips down if it's gonna be muddy. And then we had to sort of have this conversation about, hang on, can, can we do that this paddock? And will the, is that okay for, depending on what wood chips you use, can you use that for grazing animals immediately after?

So yeah, it's, it's, there is some, it's not just return it to. Yeah. Bushland state, it's return it to like a, a [02:15:00] working farm state as well.

Per: Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, we, I mean, we have, we have commitments to the landowner and we have commitments to, to the key stake, the key stakeholders in terms of those who, um, um, approve our permitting and the regulations and so on like that.

So that's, that's a really important part of what we do too, is that's, we we're, we're, you know, we we're maintaining our compliance.

PY: Mm-hmm. It's like one of those many things, you know, I guess particularly, you know, fire notably where it's sort of, yeah, we really have to manage this one. Otherwise the, it sort of puts the, the event in risk that for future years kind of thing.

Per: Exactly.

PY: Yeah. Okay. Yeah,

Per: I mean, no, no landowner is gonna want, I mean, I guess it depends how much they were getting paid for, for their, for their land, but yeah, no, no, nobody, no landowner wants to see their, you know, litter over their, all over this, all over their property.

PY: Yeah. No, I, I, I think even if the, I don't know, I mean, if the landowner got paid millions, would they be happy to see the place, get trash and then just spend [02:16:00] 100,000 glass getting a crew,

Per: have a chat to the Glastonbury?

Uh, lot. Yeah. Anyway.

PY: No, maybe not. Um, okay, so it's sounding like you, you need people for the Moop Sweep Host event, which is less than a day's work.

Per: Yeah, just like, you know, three to four hours on, on the Monday or the Tuesday, and we usually get out, we usually finish up by the Tuesday. Like Wednesday is usually not, um, not required.

And, um, yeah, it's, it's good to get the site, um, wrapped up and moved out. Okay. Yeah, so, you know, if you wanna hang around, um, you can freely, you can use the facilities, like we've got extra facilities, so we being, um, spam, um, so preparation and management. Um, and we, um, you know, we'll have a Barbie, um, on the Tuesday, probably Tuesday afternoon, um, just to yeah, wrap things up.

Um, also for the spam crew as well. They, um, good, [02:17:00] good. Um, good connecting time and, um, lots of backslapping and

PY: yeah.

Per: Um, all that sort of stuff. So yeah, you're very welcome to, if you come along and want to help out with spam, with, um, with l and t, then yeah, anything we've got at spam is open for you to use.

Um, just, you know, given that the toilets and kitchens and maybe the rest of your theme camp is packed up and gone home, so yeah,

PY: it's almost like a good way of having a, um, a bit of a, a slow exit and a nice kind of, you know, like Yeah, exactly. Wait till the rush is gone kind of thing. Wait till the, yeah.

The road is flushed out a bit. Yeah. Um, and just kind of take your time, you know, almost have like a little quiet. Reintegration back into the, to the world. Yeah. And, um, walk the nice, quiet rolling paddock. Yeah. And it's a bit of tidying up.

Per: Yeah. And you know, on the, on the Monday night or something like that, you know, you can hang around the fire and, um, the spam [02:18:00] fire and have chats.

The spam crew are pretty bloody awesome people. Some of the best people I've ever met, so. Hmm. It's very chill. Well, well worth getting, well worth getting to know and yeah. Maybe you want to go and do more, um, help out spam the following year. Yeah. Good opportunities there. Really good.

PY: Hmm. Okay. And so new people a little bit during the event.

Potentially for some, um, for some in chicken theater, uh, after the event for mm-hmm. You know, half a day or so. Is there, is there any pre-event activities that happen in terms of surveying and data gathering that you need uni people for?

Per: Um, so, um, the, I mean the, the signage and the pre pre-event promotions is really important, I think for those people who are virgins.

Um, those who are coming to, to burn for the first time, they may or may not know, you know, all these bits and pieces. So that sort of con that communication and promotion before the event's really important. In [02:19:00] terms of like, um, actual, like other activities, look, we've, we've done some initial sort of scouting to have a look at, um, weeds that are on the property as well, that we are kind of interested in trying to do some, um, weed management, some land management.

We, um, I've also had some, you know, some initial thoughts about things, brief edge work, but that's entirely up to the, mm-hmm. To the landowner. So we're sort of approaching that. I'm certainly keen, um, with a bit more capacity and time to do some more research into, uh, you know, effects the impacts outside of the event, but due connected to the event.

So in particular around carbon and doing some work around that. But, um, look, you know, I, I have limited capacity in terms of what I can do, but, um, certainly interested if other people, um, are interested in, in, in connecting and, and doing some of that work. Yeah, I mean, I might do a little pilot. Um, I did a bit of a pilot last year in terms of like monitoring what cars sort of come in and, [02:20:00] um, doing some surveys and asking people what they, how far they've come, where they've come from, all that sort of stuff.

Just to sort of get an idea of distances and quantities of, um, fuel and all that sort of stuff.

PY: Get a carbon based stuff. Um,

Per: so yeah, look, there's always more and there's lots of really interesting things going on at the big burn and, uh, the other burns around Australia and yeah, anybody who's got ideas about what's, what they've been doing there and wanna inject it into Underland, we, yeah, definitely super keen.

PY: Yes, this is a good point because it's sort of part of a, there is sort of a bigger initiative out there about, you know, looking at how we do these events. Do we need to, do you know, people asking questions, do we need to burn things? How's that affecting a carbon footprint? How many miles people drive?

What sort of fuel we use? Exactly. 1, 1, 1, 1 big discussion we have every year and spam is solar. Can we, can we get on away from. Generators. 'cause generators are Yeah. Ugly for various reasons. Ev everyone wants a nice quiet site for a start. Yeah. [02:21:00] Yeah. So there's, there's a lot of sort of bigger environmental and resource issues here that surround leave.

No. You know that it's not just about the, the, the bin chickening the ground. Yeah, no,

Per: yeah, no, definitely. It's, it's, there, there are bigger pictures and I mean, one of the, I mean to leave, say leave no trace, like, I mean, the ultimate irony is that, um, we leave a, a burn scar and you can argue that, you know, you can clean out the burn scar, you can take out the ash, you can take out the, the fix, the fittings, the metal fittings from the, from the, um, from the, from the burnable art.

But you have functionally sterilized the ground underneath that burn scar. And, you know, that has various effects. Um, but ultimately you really are not leading no trace. There, there, there is some reckoning around that, like we we're getting into the weeds a bit, but it's, it's, uh, it's definitely something worth thinking about.

And yeah, there will probably be years, you know, this is outside, again, outside of the scope of l and t, but there'll be years when we probably won't be able to burn. So [02:22:00] coming up with a Plan B would probably be a good idea.

PY: How's a burn without burning?

Per: Mm, I know we can have a little, uh, LED latch, little, little, those little, those little candles, little LED candles.

PY: Just throw them collectively into a massive bonfire, like fire on the ground and see what happens.

Per: Okay. Uh, um, yeah.

PY: All right. So to, to finish up with, uh, a couple more things. If, for people looking to be part of this team, do they, apart from the time that they, they would need to gift during, at the end of the event, is there any, uh, particular skills or abilities they need to have?

The, this does sound like it'll take a little bit of walking. Not heaps. Um, and a little bit of, yeah. Carrying stuff around, but again, not, not, absolutely. Yeah. Heaps. No, it's, it's sort of a, you know, not too demanding physically.

Per: No, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty light. I mean, I think about how much work, um, other spa members [02:23:00] do.

Um, I just seem to do a lot of walking. I, um, yeah. Um, that's, that's what, that's what most people on, on the team sort of end up doing. It's not, you know, you get, uh, your gloves and a bag and I might have a few of those picky upy sticks, but, um, yeah, no, no skills. Just, you know, as long as you can walk, as long as you can.

Decent, got half decent eyesight and you can see things on the ground. Yeah, it's pretty, that's pretty simple. Um, yeah, and just engaging with social media as well and that stuff like that.

PY: Ah, that's right. Yeah. On the education side. And, uh, just to point out, for people who haven't been before, it's not like there's tons of rubbers that's been picking up here where it's in the, generally think people are pretty good.

So we're really in the kilograms here, aren't we? We're not in the,

Per: uh, not even, I don't think we even made a kilogram. We'd probably

PY: not even one kilogram.

Per: No, it's, it's a bag. It's a small one bag. It's a small shopping bag. Yeah. Amazing. Easy. Yeah, like, I think in the first year there was one water canister that rolled off, which was as big as everything [02:24:00] else put together.

I mean, it was empty, um, and we picked up and recycled it and all that sort of stuff. Oh, yeah, that's the other thing I was gonna mention was yeah, cans, we sort of, um, we picked up a fair few, well, there's a lot of, a lot of aluminum cans generated. Um, and we, um, did a, um, hooked up with the local, uh, footy group and their ball group, um mm-hmm.

For the kids footy ball and, and use that as a, uh, as a fundraising, um, exercise for them. Um, we're just gonna sort of, I think we'll probably refine it a bit this year and, and have a central point. But yeah, that's a good little community building, uh, connecting sort of activity. And yeah, it shows that we've got, you know, we're willing to put in a bit of, uh, time and effort into other people's, into the local community, which, yeah, we're just there for a few weeks each year.

But, yeah. Good fun

PY: with the locals, all I've met have been. Really happy to have us there, which is really good. Yeah,

Per: absolutely love it. They, um, yeah, and for those who have, you know, never come before they see [02:25:00] something and their eyes are widen and yeah, they really enjoy it. I don't think we've had anything negative so far, so, no,

PY: no, it's all been pretty good.

And hopefully more of the, more of the same. Mm-hmm. Um, okay. Well, uh, maybe in closing, can you tell me, for people who are sort of thinking about jumping on board with your team, what, what's the, what's the main thing that you take away? Uh, you know, when the event is done and you sort of reflect back on, you know, how did I spend that week?

Did I have a good time? Did I not have a good time? What did I take, take away from it? What, what's the main thing that you sort of come away with having, having sort of, you know, uh, given this gift of, you know, leading the LNT, what's the, the sort of the, the positive thing that you reflect on after it's all, after it's all done that people might get out of it?

Per: Oh, it's such a buzz. Uh, it's such a buzz. It's, um. Like it's, you know, all the lead up and stuff is very [02:26:00] exciting, but the afterglow that you get from, from an event like that, just in terms of connecting with people and yeah, just the incredible creativity is, it's just, it's mind blowing and, and the effort that people put in and the care they have for each other.

And yeah, just respect and, yeah, it's just a really strong sense of community and, and while it sort of only lasts, only it lasts, you know, a a few weeks in September, October, it's, it's, um, it really does carry through the rest of the year. But, um, yeah, it's, it, it really is that, that afterglow of, of, um, and warmth of, of connecting with people and, and it's nothing, nothing quite like it.

PY: Hmm. I I feel that the volunteering aspect only kind of deepens that experience. Absolutely. You get, you sort of see a bit further behind the scenes and become a little bit more involved and Oh, yeah, yeah. Have an excuse to Yeah. [02:27:00] See people and meet things and, yeah. No, it's to meet people.

Per: This is still some of the, there are still some of the best people around the burners are, are awesome people in, in the vast majority.

And, and spam, you know, spam leadership's fantastic. And spam. Um, and Cav, you know, common Arts Victoria in general have done a fantastic job in, in fostering that. And yeah. And, and, and getting good, good feedback. I think from community, like, you know, there obviously little hips and hiccups and all that sort of stuff, but, um, yeah, I just think that the, the way things are run is, is really clean and, um, transparent.

PY: Hmm. Okay. So for folks wanting to get in contact with you Yeah. To inquire about the LNT team, what's the best way for them to reach out to you?

Per: Um, I guess probably the email. Uh, there's an LNT, so leave no trace, just the letters. LNT. Mm-hmm. Um, [02:28:00] at common arts.org au. Mm-hmm. Um, you can pretty much, you could probably email anybody at Common Arts including, um, the secretary or, or the president or anything.

And they'll, you know, if you, if you can't get hold of me through, um, that email, then there'll be someone called,

PY: there's a generic email address. You can find that common arts org au or underland. Yeah. Au

Per: Yep.

PY: Yep.

Per: Um, yes, I believe there, there should be a crew at common arts org au. Um, email as well.

Otherwise you can also hit me up in the slack. Um, P-E-R. Yeah, I mean, look, if you can find me on Facebook, then I'm also there. You can find me wherever. But yeah, just get in touch sooner rather than later and let us know your availability around the sec, you know, towards the end of things. And yeah, like I said, it's all really well catered and everything like that, so if you, um, wanna hang around for a few more hours on a Monday or Tuesday, that'd be awesome.

Yeah. But yeah, during the rest of it too,

PY: hang around and have like a, a slow peaceful reintegration [02:29:00] back into the default world. And, and yeah, take a default, take a more time to, to stroll the, those beautiful hills, not contemplate. Yeah. The week it's been.

Per: Yeah, definitely take it slow.

PY: Okay, Per, thanks for coming on the podcast today.

I look forward to seeing you out there on. Thank you.

Per: Yeah, sounds great. PY. Thanks heaps.

PY: That concludes this volunteers call out episode. Please come back for part two.

Transcripts transcribed by Descript AI