Stevan: [00:00:00] A Bonzaar. Welcome to everyone. This episode we'll look back at the Underland, effigy and Temple build from 2024 and 2023, and to talk about the more memorable erection stories. We have three, we have two inspiring and amazing burners with us here. Uh, why don't you guys introduce yourself? We've got Glen and, and Jim with us.

Um, hi guys. Yeah,

Jim: Hey there. Hey, Stevan. It's great to be on. Um, so my name's Jim and I was the, uh, effigy, uh, build, lead, and design lead for, uh, Underland this last year. Oh,

Stevan: what was the name of the project, Jim?

Jim: So the effigy was called the Pobblebonk, so it was, uh, yeah, inspired by the local fauna.

Stevan: Yeah. We'll get more into that.

Hey Glenn.

Glenn: Hello? Uh, yeah, my name is Glenn. I also go by the Moniker Flame writer, and I, I've been doing, uh, fire sculpture since 2013.

Stevan: And you, you helped with the temple, the Nautilus Temple in 2023, is that correct?

Glenn: Uh,

Stevan: yeah. Yeah.

Glenn: There's a, a [00:01:00] quite a collective approach, uh, to that one. And I did the carving that was up the top.

Um, but yeah, bigger picture with that one. Um, the underland community's been doing a lot of work, um, in mentoring, um, new people and getting more people involved. Um, so yeah, I was doing some of the work of, of trying to, um, support that process.

Stevan: Okay. Let's get now the, my favorite part is listening to people's origin stories, their background, how they got, how they found about, about the culture, how they discovered it, how they discovered the communities as well, the art community.

Uh, what are your origin stories, Jim?

Jim: Yeah.

Stevan: How did you get involved?

Jim: Um, so I guess. I got involved with Burns. Well, yeah, the burning culture through Camp Kraken was the camp I first joined and that was through some mutual friends and friends of friends who I met at. I think, you know, I got the invitation 'cause I went to a friend's house.

Or a friend of a friend's house and she was trying to sew some dragon costumes to take to Burning Man for the [00:02:00] first time or second time. And I was like, what is Burning Man? And she's like, it's this thing. I wanna make these costumes. And I helped her do that. This was my friend Sammy, and then when she got back from Burning Man, then she, she invited me to join Camp Kraken at Rainbow Serpent for the first time.

And that was the first time Camp Kraken was there. And I just remember the experience of that was kind of like just walking in. I'd only just moved to Melbourne and so it was like walking into this theme camp of like 40 new friends. And I just needed to learn everyone's names, but everyone was like immediately friendly and yeah, it, I just kind of loved the.

So that camp famous,

Stevan: famous for its, uh, sub submarine.

Jim: Yeah. So the submarine got built, oh, I can't remember what year that was, but yeah. Um, a few of the guys in the crew decided one year that they wanted, we wanted to have a, they wanted to build an art car. And so then we built the submarine and that went from like, you know, the first design ideas being like this dinky little [00:03:00] trolley thing and then becoming this massive ordeal on the ute.

And I've often done a lot. I

Stevan: I even, I even remembered you guys towing it. I, I even remembered you guys towing all the way to Blazing Swan to the, to the West Coast.

Jim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were lucky enough to get it over there one year. Um, we, the, the thing doesn't move very well. You have to like put it on the back of a flat back to get it anywhere.

You know, if we'd really thought about longevity, we would've made it packed down onto a container or something. But yeah, we took it over to Blazing Swan and had like the best time with that. I remember one morning, like, yeah, and we have like a, there's a lot of high tech, well attempted high tech stuff in it with cameras to like show you where you're going and all that sort of stuff.

But my favorite way to drive it is still just to have one person standing out the front and you can see out this tiny little hole and you just follow the A on. It felt like every time we, we did camp kraken and we reinvented it every year. So we like, you know, one year we [00:04:00] found a whole like pink bar and plush decor in a, in a Skip in the city and we pulled all that out and created the Pink Flamingo another year.

We had like a whole set of stairs from an old theater piece. We created a cabaret bar for that. And then we got the submarine and then we built Bouys and a Jetty and we had a huge setup at, at Burning Seed. I think that was probably, um, my memory is terrible for what years these all happened. I'm sorry.

But, um, yeah, and then taking it to blazing was, I think I got drive it the fastest it it's ever been, which was down Desert Road to the along edge of the, but yeah. So, but yeah, so that I, I kind of like just dived in with the admin and creativity and that sort of jumping on and everyone else's ideas. And then separately to Burns, I got involved with like, uh, sculpture building [00:05:00] art pieces at Rainbow Serpent and then Babylon and Strawberry Fields with a another collective of friends and artists.

And yeah, we were getting on a really good sort of momentum there. Building. Yeah, we built like a giant eagle one year. We built a sea dragon. We built a temple space at, we built. A stage, stage at, um, at Strawberry Fields and yeah, getting really good momentum of that. But then COVID happened and all of that sort of stopped in the ground.

And so, but I was always keen to like kind of combine those two experiences and build something to burn. So yeah, that's why when, yeah, I'd never had, I'd never done a build at Burning Seed, but then at Underland two years ago, 23, I saw a post from Axel, I think it was being say, at like a last minute call out that he needed a few people on the team.

And, um, I was, luckily I had a few weeks spare, so I just jumped on board and said, yep. And so then I became part of that, [00:06:00] that crew to do the, um, the rain moth and the Nautilus temple. I spent most of the time on the effigy, on the moth. Um, yeah. And then that was a, a great time. Yeah. Really inspiring. And then at the end of the, um, end of that experience.

The word kind of ran around, as Glenn mentioned, they were really encouraging like fresh blood or fresh ideas, fresh people to come in and lead the builds or support, you know, designs in any way. And yeah, I just kind of, I got the inspiration for the pobblebonk, or I had had an idea of doing this frog after one night is doing the build.

I dunno if you want me to go into that full origin story there, but yeah. So three, we

Stevan: can talk about it later. Yeah. It's fascinating.

Jim: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stevan: We can, we can talk about your, your, your 2024 build and your lead and your leadership and your, the, the idea behind it. Yeah, for sure. How about you?

What's your. What's your origin story, origin story? How'd you get involved?

Glenn: Well, [00:07:00] back in, uh, 2011, there was this phenomenon going on, uh, called 1111. It's a bit like the Y 2K bug, and there's a bunch of people that actually believe that, uh, 2011 on 11th 11, some portals gonna open up. Although this would be, and I misunderstood the festivals based on this.

I thought it'd be a bunch of fun to watch a heap of people thinking that the portal's gonna open. And then I looked at a lot of the, um, materials coming out. They really resonated, um, with my values. I, I, I do and was doing at the time, a lot of community activism. Um, so there was a lot of anarchist and um, uh, you know, uh, socialist theories, uh, based on Burning Man.

So I was, all right, we'll give that a go. So I didn't find the 1111 call. I found another one. And then, uh, watched the Man Burn that year and I just brought back my childhood. Um, fire was my favorite toy, uh, besides Lego. And yeah, it was just quite a powerful experience. So yeah, that was really, uh, special for me.

Uh, and now fast forward a few years and, um, there was a talk at [00:08:00] a co-working space. I was working out and, uh, the captain, Justin McGhee came to try to recruit, uh, artists. And I was working on a piece for try to pitch to Rainbow and um, I looked at it, well, we could just burn the thing, right? So we pitched it and then, um, they said it wasn't quite suitable for the location.

Uh, it would've worked really well in a desert environment. So I redesigned it, um, based on sort of feedback. Um, and the fire creep, specifically Rusty at the time was very supportive of new people and ideas and yeah, so sort of, uh, those type of people that really build this culture and, and the artwork.

And um, yeah. So I did my first burn, um, which was exciting and yeah.

Stevan: That was, did you say your first band, first seed? Was it

Glenn: Uh, so my first one was 2013. Yeah. Burning Seed. Yeah. On Thursday night they opened it up for me, um, to do a small burn.

Stevan: And, and your journey in, into building effigies or building art, uh, you were quite [00:09:00] in, in terms of leading the community, of, of building an art burn.

That was 2018, was that right? Or 17 at Burning Seed?

Glenn: Um, uh, no, 2015. Uh, I did the effigy, however, that was, um, I was quite naive to building at the, and there was a team building under me and also on top of me. So as a creative director, uh, I didn't have a lot of control, but enough control would obviously do my vision.

And then, then it wasn't until the following year or the following year, I actually went to Pine Gap, uh, to resist the, um. Industrial that's in the center of our country. So I was unable to participate. So then in 2017 I did forest rising. Um, and again, thanks to Rusty and the fire support crew, they opened up Friday night for another burn.

And what was really exciting about this is that we could move away from all the dogma, those around the effigy. At the time there was a lot of American dogma, um, rules, a lot of, um, even aggression, how things should. Blah, blah, blah. [00:10:00] So we could just get, get away from that. Um, yeah, and it was really good 'cause then we could also look at, um, things like lifecycle.

There's a bunch of things we're told that we couldn't do as far as building and, uh, sourcing materials and sustainability. And so we just did it and really focusing on a concept of, um, removing all the toxins so that we can return ash to fertilizer back to the lands. Yeah. So we did, did a bunch of work in that way.

So yeah, forest rising was probably the first, um, time I was leading a crew on thousand seven. Uh,

Stevan: would you like to see more art burns happening, like pre-temple or pre effigy? I think it's a good thing.

Glenn: Ah, ah, most definitely. So the big issue is the safety. Obviously we need very extensive safety.

Stevan: Which means more volunteers for perimeter and

Glenn: Yeah.

Yeah. And also, uh, also the, uh, leads as well. All your safety leads, you know, they're very specialized skill, experience people, so that means I've gotta be, you know, sober on the tools from far longer. Um, so ideally we have a Friday, but we just don't have the resources for that. As [00:11:00] we did burning Seed. We have also discussed the concept of having a bunch of smaller ones within the same perimeter.

So maybe we have small, uh, six more effigies and that way we can have, you know, really good incubator for people to be able, you know, do new stuff. So yeah, the Underland community is really open to things. Um, you know, it takes a lot of resources of people to support this stuff. So I think the community is still a bit young.

We're doing a lot of work around this. Um, but as I think we build, because the foundations and the cultures here, so, you know, I think we can do some really exciting things and I think we can also just stop, follow any of the dogma, um, that they have in America about, about this artwork.

Stevan: Yeah. You mentioned previously about the getting new blood in, getting new people and new ideas in.

I guess some of the hurdles is that it is dominated by, by men. This, uh, the work, I guess it's more, more labor intensive. So how do we get more people involved that has, from different backgrounds and different even skill sets, [00:12:00] uh, what are the minimum requirements, do you think?

Jim: Uh, I'd say minimum requirement is just.

Enthusiasm, you know, and a commitment for projects really.

Stevan: Trade wise.

Jim: Trade wise, it's like you can learn, you know, like you can learn how to use tools, you can learn how to cut wood. You know, it's like, yes, you need, like, you might, depending on the design, like of something, you might need, like a minimum level of fitness to like be able to pick stuff up or put stuff down.

But even then, like if you're working with, you know, different, different abilities, there's always some aspect of the team that you can get involved in. You know, I think, yeah, like definitely like the hands on stuff on site, you need, you know, it's, I think one of the biggest hurdles is. People available to kind of go site for a build.

But that's why, you know, I don't think my build was the best example of this because I'd rushed everything quite the last, [00:13:00] but doing, if you can plan it so it can be built over weekends, like, you know. And you have a space here in the city, then people can kind of just come in for a few hours, you know, every, each week or you know, a weekend, a month or something like that to kind of spread that load out.

And then as long as you have a mix of experiences, I think I was really lucky to have, you know, some very talented and experienced builders. And then there were some who were just enthusiastic and then, you know, and we were all, and you know, I was using techniques that a lot of my team hadn't used before, so it was just a matter of being open to teaching people and just like having the patience to do that I think is really important.

Do you agree with that, Glenn? Like it's kind of, you know, I think the most important part of making it an inclusive space is more about the mindset of the people who are, you know, invited or who are invited to lead it. Yeah. Patience, tolerance and [00:14:00] enthusiasm. That'd be my

Stevan: What other soft skills do you think, uh, managing a team?

Yeah. Talking to people share, showing your vision, like exp illustrating your vision.

Jim: Yeah, definitely having a vision. Um, I guess each project would be kind of, I guess the culture of each project is gonna be colored by the, the personalities of the people leading it. So yeah, I was the creative, I was the creative director and the build lead kind of for, for my projects.

So, and I'll be honest that that was probably mostly just because I spent most of the time planning it in my head rather than going out and finding the team until maybe six weeks before the event, just because, you know, my life didn't gimme a capacity before then. But I think, yeah, having people that help can help you, like plan out the process.

So being at, if you have, if you've never done a build before, there are people in the community who will help you, like break it down. Like you have, like you, you [00:15:00] know, you might have like the back of a napkin sketch of what your idea is. And then they can kind of riff on that and like ask the right questions to get you to think about the structure of it and what the internals are gonna be.

And like it'll just throw up more questions. But then there's more, there are many people in the community who will help you answer those. And then, yeah, the soft skills I think is, yeah, just sort of a patient patience, willingness to collaborate and to not change your ideas, but like to workshop your ideas.

So you're gonna learn things as you go. You're gonna have to figure stuff out on the fly a little bit. So having that sort of flexibility.

Yeah.

But I think

Stevan: maybe not to, maybe not to fall in love with your project too much. I guess it's some outside criticism so you can actually see it from different eyes.

Jim: Definitely. Definitely. And I think there, you know, I think this is a lesson that I taught from. Working with Axel and Glenn on 20th 23, effigy was [00:16:00] as well, was like, you'll have a big crazy vision of what you wanna do, but then really pare it back as well and think about like what is the minimum you need to get it done.

And then if you have that kind of scale of like the bare minimum and then the big amazing everything that gives you a lot of grace to then have time to breathe when and to time to work with and like, be flexible with the team you've got on the ground when you get to the site because you know shit's gonna happen.

It's either gonna rain some days or some idea's not gonna work or you know, you might not have, you know, you might underestimate how long something's gonna take to build. And so if you've got that sort of flexibility that can make everything that you're achieve beyond that bare minimum a lot more enjoyable because you're not busting your balls to kind of create, you know, this Taj Mahal sort of space.

You're kind of. You've created the base, and then if you have time and energy to do more, then you're just playing on it, you know, and you're [00:17:00] riffing on it and you're just like, oh, what about that? And what about that? Well, this could be cool, you know? And it becomes a lot more playful, which I think is really important.

You know,

Glenn: it also means you don't burn your crews out if you are a good, uh, good inspiring people.

Jim: Yeah.

Glenn: Because they were volunteers. And we've gotta respect that and have a lot of love for our people.

Jim: Definitely. I think that's really true. You know, and I think, yeah, something I learned as well is yeah, that kind of empowering people in the team to kind of like, take care, you know?

It's kind you Yeah. As the lead. You're, you're kind of this, you're fluctuating between Yeah. Like inspiring Joker and like Slave Master sometimes, you know, of like, there might be a job that is, you know, that is repetitive or whatever. And I always felt really bad being like.

Panels here, but if you do it in a way that's like, you give ownership to people, you know, I had, by the end of the build, I had some of the guys on my team who were just like, nah, I'm taking one off and redoing it. I'm not [00:18:00] happy with it. And if they're making that call, then I'm just like, go for gold, you know?

But I'm not gonna be coming around busting someone's falls on,

you know, those sort of minor details. But I'm sure there were some minor details I got people to redo, but

Stevan: yeah, you gotta be flexible. Yeah, exactly. So Glenn, why, why do you think it's, it's, besides the issue of being, it being a male-dominant profession, like building stuff, but what, what other things like that's, uh, you know, trying to get new blood, new people in.

What are some of the issues.

Glenn: Uh, well for me it's culture. 'cause the, the issue is really, it reflects the Australian trades. Most of this work we do require tradespeople to, to support. We do need some of them solid skills. And, you know, the Australian industry, although changing is slow and, and pretty crap.

Now, as Jim said, we can teach a lot of these skills. I mean, we do need some base, um, skilled people. Um, so where to move in this context is actually to create spaces that allow diversity. So if you're looking at race diversity, then you would [00:19:00] go, well, what, how do we create a safe space for people? Of, of that diversity so that they actually feel comfortable coming in, they feel safe, you know, a lot of lessons learned from gender diversity, um, and, and the trans community.

Like how do we create a space where they feel that they can come and be safe and feel welcome? Because if we don't do that, then's just not gonna come. And then if we make it safe for trans people and people of color, then you know, then we're making it a safe space for everybody. Um, and I think, you know, we're, we're formally a collective in doing this work, but we're gonna start formalizing this work to really put in systems in, in place so that we can deal with issues, we can deal with, um, potential minor conflicts when we do have diversity.

So, um, then we can actually say to someone, well, you're welcome and we actually mean it. Not just because tick, we're actually doing work make people feel welcomed.

Stevan: Should we take a quick look at the historic and symbolic meaning of effigies and Temples? Uh, because you talked [00:20:00] about, you mentioned, um, David Best Glenn Yeah. And the history behind that.

Glenn: Yeah. I think anyone that's interested in temples, uh, needs to, uh, listen to some of, uh, David's, uh, work, uh, talks. There's a specific one you can search, which is artist Talk with David Best and the Temple Crew. Um, and I was really inspired, um, two things. His lifecycle, I mean, he was really championing, um, reuse, um, materials and reducing, you know, new, new materials.

But his original temple was dealing with suicide in his community. So he, um, was using the process to bring people together to be able to talk about emotions, especially men, um, in something that's really deep, and then create a safe space to, um, express our emotions or to process our emotions. So that's wonderful.

And, and then, um, I would then jump to like my, um, his, my, my ancestry of the European tradition of Solstice. Effigies. Wickerman. Now, I haven't done [00:21:00] a lot of research in that area, but I'll be keen to, but even before then, I mean, there's such a primal human connection. The seasons, you know, we can only do this in winter, you know, the connection to the earth and, and fire.

And then also with the actual man, the burning man, you know, the ephemeral nature of life. You know, you've got this strong man standing proud one day, next day's ashes. And I think there's something to always remember in, in my life is that, you know, I'm standing strong today. You things change really quickly.

So it. Give thanks.

Stevan: There's also the, the history of, uh, witchery and, and I guess spells in terms of, uh, effigies and stuff, stuff like that as well. In terms of a history there, there has been, uh, different cultures interpret different ways as well.

Glenn: Yeah. The thing that I'm also really interested in is ex, is to, to develop partnerships with First Nations.

Uh, they have a fascinating history with fire on this country. You know, I can, I can [00:22:00] explore the European tradition, but I can't explore that, uh, without the Right, right. People and frameworks. But yeah, like Fire is such a major, um, part of First Nations culture, and I'd just really love to see more of that.

Stevan: And how do you think that's connected in terms of the burner culture? How, uh, how is it the importance of effigies and temples in the burner culture?

Jim: Um, yeah. I guess for me, I'm, I'm be honest, I haven't. Delve into the books or the podcasts or the theories, um, of other people. But I'm definitely more, I guess, the experiences and things that I've spoken to people about.

So, you know, going to like the power of a burn, you know, when everyone is gathering and, and partying, you know, or, you know, gathering at, at the site and then, you know, an effigy is such a focal point of it. And then, and you know, when the man burns or the effigy burns, it's such a [00:23:00] huge release of excitement.

You know, it was a really, you know, for someone like, you know, I come from a, like a pretty secular background, you know? And so it's been the most closest kind of like religious experience I'd probably say I've ever had in terms of like rich ritual on that scale. And having done it in, you know, a few on three continents, it's.

How well that leg, how similar that feels like across the experience and then, yeah, and just, I, we might talk about temples later, but like the, the focal like, or I guess like the contrast between the energies of like the effigy burning and that sort of like ecstatic release and then the solemn sadness and like, you know, when a temple is done well, how powerful of a space that can be in its silence.

Um, not only when it's burning, but when you visit it, like throughout the event. Um, [00:24:00] I've had some of the, you know, like I've had such beautiful cathartic times at temples and I think, and that's just like such an embodied experience. I think it speaks to a lot of, I, you know, I don't wanna say it's like, yeah, it a religious experience, but it's like, it's that group shared experience that you can only have at certain amounts of scale.

You know, when everyone gathers, um, with the right intentions, it can be a really beautiful, beautiful thing to witness and of,

Glenn: yeah, I mean, although the Americans think they, they invented this, uh, phenomena, they actually grabbed a lot of, um, traditional religious ceremony that's ancient, um, in this context.

Um, and so we can sort of make it very sterile or we can really tap into that. Yeah, definitely. Um, the latter

Jim: and it's, yeah, it's, this is, this might sound a egotistical, but I share a story of like, my experience. Effigy having built and [00:25:00] burned the effigy this year at Underland because, yeah, I guess the talking about like every time I'd gone to a burn before that you kind of have the focus of the festival going into that and then it burns and it kind of explodes out into the festival and then everyone is like on this high and it felt for the first time kind of leading and building one and then burning it.

I'm sure this is probably a shared experience for a lot of people who've built effigies or led the bills on effigies, but I felt really, I felt almost personally shattered and burnt, you know, at that time, you know? So that was a really, yeah, powerful and strange, a new experience, you know, um, which gave me a lot more, I guess it gave me a different perspective compared to what I'd experienced before where I thought it was just all fun and games.

Like it was a lot more powerful than I expected to kind of have built that and then given it away. To everyone on the paddock, you know, it was, yeah.

Stevan: Most, most of the [00:26:00] effigies I've experienced in Australia, or I've seen in New Zealand is that we don't usually burn an establishment figure or a man figure.

We are more connected to the country, the community, or the, the land. So, uh, we, we burn sort of like in, in modifyre. We, we, we burn insects.

We, they burn beetles and grasshoppers and stuff like that. So, uh, underland, you guys burn frogs and moths and stuff like that as well, which is, you know, native to the, to the environment.

So that's what I love about it. And, and in that sense, you, you can really look I guess, more vast in terms of what the natural stuff that we have here and appreciate it more. So Yeah. And seeing and, and seeing all these, uh, all these builds, definitely. It's just amazing.

Jim: Yeah. I think there's something a bit, I don't know, it feels a bit more organic and it feels a bit more Yeah.

Based. Where we are seeing those kind of, yeah, the animals and the insects come through. Yeah, it was, yeah. I got really inspired by [00:27:00] like the landscape.

Glenn: More increase our diveristy, the more that, we'll, we have far more rich expression to continue this tradition, which is something that I find quite exciting and sort of inspirational for some of our work.

Jim: Absolutely.

Stevan: Yeah, I agree. I mean, one, one great example, while she's not here, um, we supposed to have her on, uh, she's not feeling well, but Aruna from her per, from her, I guess background, her Asian kind of Southeast Asian background, kind of using that to inspire and showing a different landscape for Underland.

And in a way it actually fits into the landscape of it because it is about diversity. It is about all these people that's, that's in the community.

Jim: Definitely.

Glenn: Yeah. I mean, and there's a lot of, uh, emotion continuing on what, uh, Jim was saying. There's a lot of emotion in the crew. Um, the crews work really hard.

They're, they're working as a family. They're living and working together, um, in the build. So it's a very special [00:28:00] time and, um, experience. And then, yeah, when the things burn, it is quite emotional. So one of the things I try to do is try to recruit people as much as possible into this. So, you know, I had a, a, a person, um, I invited them to play some music at one of the burns, and she had this just amazing experience and just raving about it to me.

And I sort of, while I'm working, sort of forget that, but then I always try to remind myself like, this can be big for people to just try to bring as many people in as we can to, to do something or participate in some way because then they're emotionally, um, invested in it. Right? And then when it burns, it's sort of, they play their role in it.

So yeah, be really looking for more creative ideas to try and get more people, uh, involved. Um, and I know, um, Pete, um, from Burning Man, a wonder person, he, uh, encourages everyone to gather a stick when they come to the fire, um, when he does his opening ceremony. And that's a very great technique, um, that brings everyone in for

Jim: definitely. And I think, yeah, [00:29:00] casting wide nets for. For participation at lots of different levels for age, gender, diversity, and lived experiences. What as well? Because I think the reason, you know, you want these structures to have meaning in them and the only way you know, and that has to be given to it to them by the people who build them.

And yeah, if we're giving everyone kind of like a creative freedom to build something that means something to them, then you're gonna have more powerful experiences, I guess, rather than if you're just like, oh, it has to look like this, or it has to look like that, or it has to be built this way. Like we can really change, you know, all of, you know, that can all be on its head, you know, kind.

Yeah, it's, Aruna is not here tonight. But yeah, her temple was absolutely stunning, you know, and I loved like [00:30:00] the, the complexity of the simplicity of it, you know, and yeah, it, you know, calling back to her roots and her culture was just so beautiful. Okay, that's so much power. So it was a real pleasure for the two of us each project this year and supporting.

For time, first time it was, um, an absolute, yeah, absolute pleasure to be working with her.

Stevan: Well, from someone looking from the outside in, I saw you guys like, while you're building own structures, you guys were having fun and I saw that and it was great. You know, it's, it's not just, uh, working every day, like 12 hours shift or whatever you guys do.

Jim: Definitely. Yeah. It was so much fun. You know, it's also about having fun. I mean, we had very different work processes. I think, you know, Arun had had a design kind of from New Year's Eve that she'd been working on and chipping away out kind of, you know, a weekend a month. Whereas I sort of had an idea in my head, but I don't think [00:31:00] I put pen to paper until Yeah.

Like I was saying, like six, six weeks out or something. But yeah, then we were just both able to record up a few times at the pub and just, you know, brain dumped on each other about what we were doing and how it was working and who we're talking to and what do we need. And so yeah, it was a great support sort of network.

And then, yeah, and then once we were on site, it was just so inspiring to kind of, you know, be focused. We'd each be focused on our own builds or like, I would be focused on my build there all the time. And then you'd look across and like, you know, something has gone up on the effigy or, you know, at the end of the day, like each, you know, we'd switch over for, we'd have like some morning smoko and we'd switch between going and visiting each other, each other's space each day.

And yeah, it was just great to catch up with each other and the teams to all be working with each other because you know, the site pretty small at that stage, it's just like effigy and site crew. [00:32:00] So yeah, we become a really big family. Um.

Stevan: Glenn, you wanna talk about some of the support networks or the support things that, uh, people when they, when, when they want to do a build or something?

Glenn: Yeah.

Stevan: What's available?

Glenn: Yeah. Well, we're basically just making all this up as we go along, which has its pros and cons. Um, so previously it was more people that had solid skills and experience that was doing this, so that restricted us down to the trades people, which generally meant trades men.

So what we're, we're trying to do is gather the people with skills, and it depends on who's available when, and, and we're sort of juggling it around. But we've got sort of a crew of people that sort of work on this stuff that have built together, you know, and now we're gonna recruit Jim. Um. And, um, hopefully, you know, he'll be able to help mentor as well, the next person.

So it totally depends on the time and when people come [00:33:00] in. And we really have to also do big shout out to the, the, the amazing Axel who's a highly skilled artist and, um, tradesman, um, but loves supporting people and like Rocket Fast on sketch up. And so he, he personally does a bunch of support to, to move things.

Um, so that, that's really exciting. And there are other people in the, in the crew. So the idea of what we're doing at the moment is rather than having some system where like doing a call out, like who wants to get involved, what do you got? And so there may be an established crew that has skills come in and go, we wanna do it this, and we're gonna do it this way.

We go like, fine, let's do that. Or it might be somebody who goes, oh, I don't really have much idea. I've got enthusiasm. You know, so we can talk to them about, you know, what support they need. Um, and then we most likely will have to be able to scaffold something around to support them. So, yeah, we're making up as we go along, but we do have people around.

We do have skills, we do have enthusiasm. Um, yeah, so let's see, uh, who comes back on what ideas they [00:34:00] have and, and that sort of thing.

Stevan: Um, I remember the last, um, info session you guys had, you guys talked about the, the commence commencements of the build six months away from the burn date and two weeks on site.

Is that correct? What are the logistics or what are the details involved?

Glenn: Uh, okay. So you've, well, basically you need, uh, well, you're gonna build it out of, um, you're building a structure. Um, so you also need it to not fall over and be safe. Um, so we've been really championing, um, really using our materials, sourcing our materials.

Um, so for example, when we built the, uh, uh, the first underland, um, emu. There was this rotten, there was this, uh, old sharing shed that had been demolished. And, uh, the owner was about to burn it, and literally most of the stuff was rotten away. And we just pulled, pull out bits of wood that were rotten and stuff.

And then by the time we put them, uh, as cladding, it was this beautiful textures like this, the, the hard bits were able nail in, and then [00:35:00] all the, all the Roddy bits sticking out the other side. And, um, it was just a be beautiful texture. And, um, maybe Jim can talk to him about this, but, um, you know, sourcing materials really leads the way.

Um, so then how are you gonna source 'em? Where you gonna source them from? Where you gonna store 'em? How you gonna get 'em to site? So things like site, we usually hire a truck collaboratively, the organization, or you may wanna source them locally. Now kitchen, uh, is usually done by the, um, crew. Um, what other logistics do I have to think about?

Jim: Yeah, so I guess, yeah, like once you have your design, like I had a design that I sort of built based on. The materials I wanted to build it with, which was like natural timbers and these, and the planks, and then you kind of, from that, you can work back and figure out how it's gonna be built. So for mine, I couldn't do any prefabrication before we got to site.

The only thing I could do was like, prepare the materials. So I had like, you know, two trucks worth of pallets that I had to pull apart. [00:36:00] So yeah, you've gotta, you might have to organize workshops to do that and spaces to do that and space to store that before you go. I know Aruna was able to do a lot of her paneling, like was able to like pre-build many, a lot of the panels for the temple.

So that was what, you know, what she and her team were doing on like the monthly sort of workshops through the year. Yeah, gathering materials is a big thing and then figuring out it's got, well, I mean, if it can be interacting about your ideas, like, yeah. So pulling in the, the skills. For inter activities.

So yeah, like I had like the puppet idea, you know, which originally I was just like that lonely happened on the burn night. But then as we were building it, my, my dear friend Mark, who's an extremely talented, oh my God, everyone should have a German carpenter on their build because they're just ridiculous.

Yeah. He was just like, you know, tell me the idea, [00:37:00] tell me your preferences. And then I'd walk away and come back and he's just like, made this, you know, beautiful piece. Yeah, definitely. That's a proper, you know, so like, yeah. I put, yeah. I think in terms of, I was, I was pretty like. I'm a bit of a slap dash kind of person, like in terms of, but I've built sculptures before, mostly working.

Like my background, the sculptures I built before were all a hundred percent like natural branches. Like, so we would literally like go to a site, go out into the bush and then just find dead branches and then pull them back. And then from that we would create a sculpture. So I was like, so my mentality, it like isn't so much about having the plan and then being like, okay, I'm gonna need to like produce X, Y, Z to then make the plan.

It's more like, what have I got? And then let's work with what I've got to build something. So it's, it, I guess it's more of a sculptural approach rather than a build [00:38:00] approach. And so, yeah, so I was doing that a bit with still with, even though the, the, I did actually plan out a lot of it. I did sketch up, you know, and model a lot of it just to get things like the mouth.

You know, I had the mouth already planned out. I had, you know, the scale of it planned out and I had to figure out how many the eyes, the eyes I off sourced were friends. The eyes. Yeah. Um, Steven Manos. So I put in a request to him to build the eyes for me. Um, so yeah, so, and they worked amazingly well. And then, you know, another friend, Jamie Donavan, who did the, he created the bugs, the like kind of paper ache bugs.

And that was just like an off the cuff comment kind of. Well, you know, like, it was like a dream. At one point I mentioned it to him, I was like, oh, hey Jamie, you make these, you know, he's a amazing artist. He makes creative, beautiful things. At one point I was just like, ha, do you wanna make some lanterns?

It'd be really cool to have these, you know, hanging outside the frog. And then, you know, two [00:39:00] weeks before the burn, he was just like, so what about those lanterns? And I was like, oh yeah, sure, if you can, that'd be great. Again, this was like, you know, a beautiful, if possible. And then he comes back and he's just built.

These like gorgeously, delicate paper mache little bugs with like the, the wings were made from dead snake skin, you know, and then like the feelers were made from, uh, what is it? Peacock feathers, you know? So like, he just sourced beautiful materials to make these gorgeous little s And so when you kind of.

Of these little aspects of it, then they can just like, put their whole into it, which I think is really beautiful. Yeah. Um, I mean, then we burn it all down, all down.

Stevan: What a shame. It was so beautiful.

Jim: It was,

Glenn: you sound like my mother, there

Stevan: was the best part. Well, here's the [00:40:00] thing. Here's the thing. I've got a little story.

So at the first Underland, uh, I met the locals there and it was the, the rain moth. And they were so impressed. They loved it. And I said, well, guess what? The best part is we're gonna burn it down. And they're, oh, what, what are you doing guys doing? Like, what are you, like, you guys are crazy. So they

Glenn: saying that though,

Stevan: how do you guys feel about building something and burning it down?

How do you feel about building something and burning it down

Glenn: are permanent? So, so if we're looking at permanent artwork, these, these simply could not be permanent artworks. They, they wouldn't be structurally safe. They'd degrade very quickly. Um, we're not, yeah, they just would fail in any context. Um, in that pop.

I'm a pyromantic, uh, and I really love, love burning stuff. So that's the best part.

Stevan: It's the best part. Yeah. Like, like we was talking about, it's tribal, it's connection, it's, uh, bonding and stuff like that. So Yeah. And,

Glenn: and I'm really into the performance. Um, so we, we do a lot of. Educated guesses and experiments when we do this hard work and, you know, we win some [00:41:00] and we lose some, trying to create effects and things.

And so the people watching, um, don't really know that we may have failed two out of three effects we went for. They're just really wowed by the one that we did pull off. And then sometimes we get lucky and produce effects we didn't plan. We'll go, well, that's our pool shot. We'll take that. So, um, yeah, we, we do a lot of, um, planning, experimenting with how things burn definitely.

And

Jim: yeah, it's like,

Glenn: which I really loved.

Jim: I think that was the beauty of it, is that you build it to burn, you know, like that's what I loved about this experience of just, you know, working on the moth last year and then, yeah, the frog this year, just like that was the first time that I'd ever thought. Yeah, the effect that fire will have on it and the experience of how it'll burn and what people will see and yeah, like you're saying Glenn, you can plan it or you can think you can plan it as much as you want, you know, but then in the end of the day, it's gonna be blowing however much, you know, the wind's gonna be doing whatever it's gonna be doing, and you, the materials and [00:42:00] the structural will do its own thing as well.

Yeah. I just remember like, because I, I think I had a very, uh, what's the word? Like I had a complicated burn plan, you know, for the frog. So

Stevan: do you wanna explain to the listeners, like I sort of photo how the flame kind of the bug or the fly?

Jim: Yeah, yeah. So explain it I guess. Yeah. I'll go back to like the idea that I had this immediately.

So like when I was on build one night, I was walking out. And I could hear the call of pobblebonks or Eastern banjo frogs. So for anyone who doesn't know that sound, they're just like, they go, you know, like, so it's really, really distinct sound. And then, you know, at the end of the, of the build for the moth or the end of, um, that first underland, you know, people were talking about, oh, who would like to build next?

And I just had this idea pop in my head of just like the idea of this frog. I was just like, oh, a frog would be [00:43:00] cool. And then I was like, imagine if the frog could, like, its tongue, could dart out and catch the flame, you know, and then pull it back in. And I was just like, immediately I was just like, that would be a really sick effect.

And I just, and my mind started ticking on like how we could make this work. So yeah. So in the end, I had, I've desi designed the frog. It was sitting up on its back legs, kind of, you know, arms out, um, holding, well it meant to be grass, but it kind of looks like, I don't know, huge start staves in front of it.

Yeah. We ended up, the bottom jaw of the frog was on a hinge and you could operate it from a lever inside the frog and Yeah. And this was, you know, and it was all like, it was a bit of an Easter egg. Even the le like how that worked because we had all these natural branches inside of it being the skeleton.

And then the lever was just also these natural branches that.

If you were looking for it, you could find it, but if you [00:44:00] weren't looking for it, you wouldn't notice it and you could unlock the lever. And what I loved was that the person operating the lever inside couldn't see what was happening. So it was only people who were outside the frog who could see the mouth moving.

So you had to work together to kind of have both experiences, which I really loved. And then on the night of, uh, for the burn, yeah, I had, we built, I think it was like a five meter long or six meter long tongue that I made out of Calico fabric. And we'd done some testing or, you know, experiments during the build around the campfire one night just to see what combinations of fuels would work best to get the flame to dart up it.

A base of vegetable oil and then a top coat of shell light, I think it was. And yeah, we built out the front of the frog. We built a lotus flower and then that had bugs that Jamie had made on it, and I lit the lotus flower and. Oh, [00:45:00] also one other thing. Yeah, lots of puppetry. So we had to, you know, have puppetry to control the mouth.

And my original idea was like, oh yeah, someone will be out the back, someone will be out the front to kind of pull the tongue in, pull the tongue back. But on the afternoon that we were loading the, um, the effigy, a few people in my, I was like, oh, who wants to be the puppeteer out the back? And, you know, someone in my team just turned to me and they're like, we all wanna be out the front.

Like, no one wants to be out the back. And I was just like, okay. Yep. And I was just like, I was just like, okay, cool, that's fine. So then we had to like, sort of redesign it so all the puppetry came from out the front of the frog. And I'm so glad that they said that because, you know, at that point in time I was just problem solving mind.

I wasn't really thinking about the full experience. But, um, yeah, so the whole front, the effigy and after I lit the. One person to drop the mouth, another person to pull the tongue out, and the flames just traced up beautifully into the mouth of the [00:46:00] frog. And then we pulled, yeah, another person pulled the tongue back in and so then that like ran down into the stomach of the frog and yeah, so it just really swallowed the flames and then we closed the mouth again and yeah, the whole thing kind of went up from the, from the belly up, I guess.

Yeah. And it was, it, I can't believe how well it worked. It like it was insane that nothing went wrong. And yeah, I just remember going up to do the burn briefing with all the safety crew and with, you know, rusty and everyone who was leading that. And you know, I'm surrounded by such extremely talented and experienced people, you know, who've been doing it for like decades.

And here am I being like this dude of just like, oh, yep. And so then this will happen, and then this will happen, and then this will happen, and then, you know, it'll burn from there. And everyone's just like, mm-hmm. Oh, so what'll happen if it doesn't work? Like we'll figure it out. No, we did have backups, [00:47:00] but yeah, it was, um, it was a dream.

And yeah, I was really happy to be able to kind of bring that kind of playful narrative to it because, you know, it's not, even though we, you know, we did, we did use a lot of fuel and we tried, you know, try to have a few big bang, which we did have. It doesn't all need to be huge pyrotechnics or anything like that.

Like, I think if you just have some clever ideas, um, to bring in some story to it, it really makes, yeah, the process of how things burn and how things collapse can make the whole, that whole part another dimension of the artwork.

Stevan: Yeah. And you talked about the, you talked, you talked about the frogs. Uh, are they still, oh. And in the site.

Jim: I hope so. So I didn't hear them at the farm last time I was there. I know Mick, the um, the landowner, he was doing some earthworks near the little dam where I'd first heard them and I think he busted a wall on it. So I dunno if it was in the best, it wasn't in the best like frog friendly condition [00:48:00] last time I saw it.

But hopefully with. A bit more time, it'll all come back. I'm definitely thinking of all of them. I know there's bush fires out that way at the moment now, so I hope they're all doing alright. But, um, it was just a beautiful opportunity to have that like, you know, I had that experience on that first year and then to like be inspired by it to bring something back.

And so then to be able to, yeah, I had, um, sound recordings going inside the frog as well. And you know, again, this was like something that I'd had an idea in my head, but then in the lead up hadn't really organized anything. But during the build, you know, I shared the idea with, you know, the team. And again, mark being an absolute.

Legend was just like, he had like, you know, one of those trad portable speakers from a construction site sort of thing. And he's just like, oh, I'll just build a spot in the bench where we can just put this and then you just put your phone on it and we've just got it going and that's it, you know? Yeah.

And so, yeah, every little maybe that I had just worked out. Yeah. And he was able to create such a [00:49:00] beautiful interior space. You know, when I, like, in my mind, I was just like, it can just be a dirt floor and a danky bench. And then he builds, you know, this stunning, you know, designed floor and, you know, carved benches and yeah, it was just great.

And we were just kind of working with these random materials that I had. So, you know, I'd had like off cuts of slabs that we shaved to make the face and.

Plank. And again, you know, bits of wood, which I just like threw into the truck as well. I was just like, they'll be useful somewhere. And all of that timber just got used in the interior. Yeah. And it was just,

Stevan: so the, um, your story, your background is very important too, for us to connect with you as well as the build.

Yeah, it's interesting. It's like, uh, I guess, uh, admiring someone's tattoo, you know, there must be a story behind that. Thank you. So when you're, yeah, I was very impressed, Jim. Very impressed with your, uh, with your work there. All the details. All [00:50:00] the details, and it worked well.

Jim: Yeah. You're welcome. Yeah, no, it worked really well.

Stevan: Thanks for sharing all that. Okay. Well, let's, well, I've, I've got, um, so shall we move on to, to a bit of more fun segment? We ha I have a, I've designed a little brain teaser here. It's about, um, iconic temples and structures around the world. Uh, so what we'll do, would you guys wanna play a little of brain teaser here with Sure.

Talking about temples and structures.

Glenn: Are you gonna plan how we're gonna burn them down?

Stevan: No. Well, uh, uh, what I'll do is I'll read out a set of clues or random or random trivia. Uh, you tell me what the iconic structural temple is, where it is, or what country and bonus points if you visit these iconic temples or structures.

Yeah. All right. So clue number one or trivial number one. This structure was constructed between 1631 and 1653. So the 17th century Next clue, it's Islamic religious building. It can be a mosque, a tomb, or museleum. It took over 20,000 [00:51:00] people human power to construct this building. The design was influenced by a middle is, do you know what it's, I have no idea.

Yes. You mentioned that earlier,

Glenn: wasn't

Stevan: it? It's actually, yeah. You mentioned it earlier, so well done. It was dedicated.

Glenn: Dedicated to his love at the time.

Stevan: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It attracts about eight to seven, seven to 8 million pe uh, tourists a year.

Jim: I haven't yet been,

Stevan: which was a lot of people.

Jim: Yeah.

Stevan: And apparently it's turning yellow, although it was originally built with the white ivory marble.

Jim: Oh, wow.

Stevan: But with the pollution, it's turning yellow,

Jim: I guess it's getting smoker's teeth. Yeah,

Stevan: that's right. Yeah. I'd, I have never been there. Have you guys been there?

Yeah.

It's quite impressive. Yeah. Alright, trivia number two. This, uh, iconic structure was constructed between 72 AD and 80 AD completed in 81 AD, but this has been some more modifications to it.

It's an elliptical amphitheater built using volcanic rock. Travis, [00:52:00] Trevor Limestone. And brick faced concrete

Glenn: coliseum.

Stevan: Yes, that's right. Yes. In Italy Rome. You guys been there?

Glenn: Yeah. That's gonna be of a brutal story. Yes, I have been there.

Stevan: Tell us about it. Oh, were you inspired by the architecture?

Glenn: Uh, yeah.

I was really surprised that small was, uh, i, I come from modern stadiums, MCG, uh, the cossum would fit it just in the, probably the football ground. But yeah, it was, it's fascinating the political history of that as well, where, um, they basically entertained the masses to distract them from what they wanted to do politically, which then escalated in just more violent and violent experts.

So yeah, very similar to what's happening these days with our stadiums.

Stevan: Yeah, it's got a quite interesting history. I mean, my, um, connection to it was, was from the Bruce Lee movies in Chuck Norris when they fought at the end, at the Coliseum. That's my connection, Brandon Okay. Trivia number three. This structure is made from limestone, mortar and granite.

It was built in circa 25 60 BC. It [00:53:00] was put over a period of 25 years, it served as holding the record as the tallest human made structure in the world for more than 3,800 years.

Glenn: One of the pyramids

Stevan: oldest among that? Sorry,

Glenn: one of the pyramids? The Egyptian pyramids?

Stevan: Yeah, the, the Great Pyramid of Giza in Cairo.

Jim: Was the structure.

Stevan: Yeah. That was, that's a, it's ancient, like a ancient wonders of the world. It was,

Jim: I haven't visited quite a time yet, but I always get blown away by the photos. Yeah. So when like, you know how like it's like picturesque when you look at it from one angle, but then like you turn around and then like the city is like right there, which you just never expect.

I think that would be wild to visit.

Stevan: No, and everything's just perfect. I mean,

yeah.

Glenn: Yeah. The, the thing that would be really fascinating is its original context because, you know, there's evidence that they were, uh, highly painted, highly colored, bright, very beautiful structures. I haven't visited that one, but have visited a bunch in, uh, south America, which are amazing experiences.

Um, the acoustics, [00:54:00] um, and a bunch of other, other stuff. Optical illusions. Uh, just fascinating. So amazing. I love that stuff. Mm.

Stevan: Uh, next question. So this, this structure, this building was constructed in 1959 and completed in 1973, designed by Danish architect, designed by Danish architect Joorn Utzon. It's a multi venue performing arts center, designated a World heritage site by UNESCO in 2007 and attracts

over 8 million people a year.

Glenn: Sydney Opera House.

Stevan: Correct. Very iconic, uh, with the sails. What do you on the design design, is it inspirational?

Jim: I love it. I love it because it, with the building structure? Yeah, because it's just, yeah, it's great. You gonna build an art, like yeah, I love it. You know, a place for art, make it, make it a piece of art itself.

And I love how like these huge, iconic buildings always have like such controversy around like how they'll build, you know, like the politicians get involved and they're like, ah, it's too [00:55:00] expensive. You know, and now what they're like rebuilding it to like put in his original designs into the interior as well, I think now, or they were doing that.

Stevan: Yeah. Do you think, do you think people are building it to be like put, to be put onto like a World Heritage list or something like that's the Grand Design Center, something out there?

Glenn: I, i'd assume that an artist at that level would be trying to, you know, really push their creative vision. So yeah. I'd assume that a, uh, a structure like that, they were not so much to win awards, but to really Yeah.

Yeah. Really push what they can push what's possible.

Jim: You know, like I'm sure there would've been some crazy engineering Yep. To make that work, you know? Like, yeah, you don't want, if you're gonna build something beautiful, you don't just build a block. Yeah,

Stevan: no, that's right. Like Minecraft. Yes. Okay. Question number five.

It was constructed in 1555, completed in 1561. It's designed in a shape of a rising flame that [00:56:00] resembles a bonfire rising into the sky, comprised of eight churches surrounding a large core structure built from red brick and white stone. And it's a, in a, it's a cathedral. Sorry. The cathedral is, is a representation of medieval art and architecture.

Jim: I was thinking cathedral.

Stevan: So it is a cathedral.

Jim: It's not one though.

The rising flames. That's what I'm trying to think

of.

Stevan: The rising flames.

I dunno.

The bonfire looks. I've never been there as well.

Glenn: That's a bad mix though. With, with Christian history, they're really pushy pushing that on. Oh,

Jim: oh, is it?

Stevan: It's in Moscow, Russia.

Jim: That really brightly colored one in, is that, what is that called? I know. What is that in? Um, Peter

Stevan: st basil's Cathedral.

Mos. Okay. Moscow.

Moscow.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's iconic for it's rising flame. I've never been one with the green looks. Gold looks how they designed it.

Jim: That one. Oh, okay. [00:57:00]

Stevan: No, it's red. Yeah, red. Okay. So this structure was constructed in 1122 CE to 1150 CE when it was completed, built as a temple shrine, musoleum and observatory.

It's dedicated to the Hindu God. Vishnu has celestial significance with certain features like precise location of the Soltice. At Sunrise, it has five central towers symbolizing the peaks of mount, which according to mythology, is the dwelling place of the gods.

Jim: Yes, I do not know. I do not know my Hindu temples.

Stevan: Do you know this temple? It's in Asia. It's in siem reap, Cambodia.

Glenn: I, I, I think I can see pictures of it, and they've got big trees going through it and stuff.

Yeah. That's gorgeous.

Stevan: Yeah. Correct. Yes. Angkor. Wat Yes, Cambodia. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's centuries old. Yeah. It, it has an aura. So these places do have an aura.

Would you agree with that? Have you [00:58:00] been to these, uh, large monuments or iconic structures? Yeah. It give us a, it gives a big presence. Like you can feel the whole Yeah.

Glenn: And that, that was the point of cathedrals, is to really overwhelm me with a mighty power of God. So you, yeah.

Stevan: Yeah. Last one. Last one. We'll. This was constructed in seven in, sorry, this was constructed in 1978, completed in 1986, designed by Iranian architecture for, Foriborz, Sahba, hard to pronounce. It's characterized by nine sided construction in keeping with the belief in the mythical properties of the number nine.

It's composed of 27 freestanding marble clad pedals, arranging clusters of three to form nine sides. Again, nine notable for its lotus like shape. So that's a big clue there.

Jim: Temple, lotus Temple,

Stevan: and it is a temple based in India, [00:59:00]

Jim: India.

Stevan: Glenn, it's a lotus shape. The Lotus Temple, and it's a temple. So it's a lotus temple.

It's in New Delhi. It's, well, it's fairly recent, I guess in the modern era. So 1986. Yeah, I haven't been there. It looked, it looked great. Yeah. You know, like modern architecture's pretty good too.

Glenn: It's in Interesting you mentioned the, um, number nine, which comes part of the sacred geometry subset. Um, and a lot of the, uh, burner, uh, builders are using sacred geometry, um, as their base.

We, I use six a lot and a lot of other artists sort of using six and then other, um, multiples of that geometry. That's cool.

Stevan: Yeah, that's interesting. Do, uh, is there a course for that as well?

Glenn: Uh, you can just do the basics. Um, I'm sure you'll find stuff online. So yeah, a comp, it's good to get a compass and then you can just draw it out.

So you start with the, um, inception, which is two circles, and then you go up to the holy trinity. Um, [01:00:00] and the, the reason this subset of geometry is sacred is because it's just been used by so many religious icons. So once you start getting compass and drawing it out, which you end up with a tree of life, but there's a whole bunch of religious symbol that are formed during that process.

Uh, all geometry sacred, this is ones that we just used by very true, but from an aesthetic point of view, um, it really does lead to, to, um, beautiful. A

Jim: yeah. Groups three. Yeah.

Stevan: Okay. Let's, let's take a short break and we'll be right back after these messages.

Nugby: Hey, Bonzaar, Nugby here, uh, secretary Crew Wrangler and Chief Coffee Consumer at, uh, third degree, uh, part-time crew, wrangler of seed.

There's plenty of other things, I'm sure, both, uh, before and during. And, um, yeah, uh, looking forward to hitting both those up this year and sad that I won't be getting that, uh, Canberra Winter solstice. Goodness. But, uh, look forward to seeing you [01:01:00] all out there.

Neillo: Hey there, Steve. This is Neillo here.

Congratulations on the podcast. Very exciting news that we're, that the burner community in Australia is moving to this very convenient medium and there's no better man than yourself to drive it. Hello to everybody. Hope you're well. Hope you're listening. Hope you're still burning away. Love you lots.

Take care. Bye-bye.

Stevan: Okay, we're back. Uh, what I wanna talk about is the idea of. Having a burn without a burn. Uh, we still have an effigy or a temple, but we don't burn because that way we can do it in the summertime or in warmer weathers, which, although in terms of holding it in those seasons, we don't have a burn permit.

So how can we burn in the summertime, guys? What do you think?

Jim: To be honest, I know, I'm like, I'm feeling my experience with even other summer festivals in Australia, like, you know, it's almost impossible [01:02:00] now to have a festival in January, you know, because of like just the bushfire risk. And so I'm almost tempted to say, why have the sum, why have the burn in the summer?

You know? But that being said, even you know, if you do it earlier in the year, sometimes you can't do the burn, you know? So there was like a risk of that happening with Underland this year. You know, there was pretty high winds. So you can't always control it, but yeah, a burn without a burn, would it just be a music festival or an arts festival?

Um, I think there'd have to be a lot of intention in the community.

Yeah. Yeah.

But you could still gather, do things in other ways. Maybe. Do you have a thought, Glenn?

Stevan: What are your thoughts, Glenn?

Glenn: Yeah, I mean, I think we can replicate most of the magic of our gatherings and of our community, but, um, we, we can't replicate the power of the experiences, in my opinion, of, of [01:03:00] fire.

Yes, there are alternatives you could do. Um, you know, I, I think theaters probably where it would go because, you know, doing a permanent sculpture sort of doesn't have that pinnacle, you know, the reason to gather or whatever. So, you know, maybe a structure that's performance. Puppet something, something. So, yeah.

Um, but I also, I mentioned earlier, it's this winter that is also a part of this, you know, the solstice burning at the solstice. There's, there's a whole bunch of, um, you know, and also people who come are willing to come in the winter. Uh, sometimes a different type of per person that will only come when it's nice in the sun.

So yeah, I don't think we should be dogmatic and say we have to burn. Um, but for me it's, it's a big part of it for me.

Stevan: Would, would one idea be, say we can have. A summer without burning, but transfer those art or something where we can burn it in the next year forward in the wintertime or something. So we can have an alternative [01:04:00] alternating kind of season or kind of gathering burn or something.

I'm not sure.

Glenn: I mean, if you, if you own the property or you can store, I mean storage, transport, um, artworks that we build would wouldn't last that long. Hmm. Uh, again, you know, you can get around these hurdles. I don't think, I don't see the climax of a, um, cul a sculpture that's still there on Sunday morning, like when you burn it on Saturday, it's a climax.

Like it's,

Stevan: it's the best part, as we keep on saying.

Glenn: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a climax of energy and, um, I think a lot of that energy is when people tap into the primal human experience. I mentioned before, you know, the seasons, the fire, the, um. All of that. I, I do think it injects just a primal energy into the event.

Jim: That being said, I also like if there, if the land was, you know, um, available to leave artworks and that sort of [01:05:00] stuff, and if the event was of a scale enough, I think the idea of building art and art piece with the intention of it to live like a year or two and then to be burned is a really great experience.

Recently went to Africa Burn and like last year, and because, you know, the scale, like they do own that land or they, like, they have use of that land and they have scale because it's, you know, it's basically a huge open desert, but they're limited on resources, so they encourage like not the effigy or the temple, but like the other art burns will get.

A few of them will be built of such a quality that they'll then stay there for two or three years before they burn. And I think, and that allows a smaller group of artists to create a space with higher impact. You know? So I think if Australia ever got, you know, if we ever had [01:06:00] a space that had the scale to allow that, I think that would be something worth exploring.

But yeah, in terms of like the effigy and the temple, um, yeah. And for either burn it or don't build it, I think,

Glenn: yeah, I mean, I would also, I would also add to, um, if we built, say Jim's for, left it for a year, it'd become a rich ecosystem. So, you know, do we just set fire all the creatures that are in there?

Jim: Hmm, that's true. Yeah, because yeah,

Glenn: I, I put a spider outta the temple, um, while we, uh, putting, putting fuel on it. Um, so already it's attracting wildlife. Um. You get spider, then you'll get, you know, lizards and goes up food chain as you know the story.

Jim: Yeah, you definitely have birds perching in the top of those reeds that for there

Stevan: as well as all the cows running, running into them.

Glenn: But I, I do think there's a massive place though, massive, for having a more permanent site where we can, um, [01:07:00] you know, build more permanent structures that are more appropriate to be, um, permanent. Or we could explore and there's been discussions about this where we build permanent artwork, then we move it to the local community so that they can then use that as a tourist attraction, which helps that community.

Uh, area around anyway. Um, so yeah, I think there's a lot of stuff that we can do, um, in permanent artwork that would be very,

Stevan: yeah. I think Blazing Swan, blazing Swan has a, has a permanent artwork in Kulin. In the city, in the township of Kulin.

Yeah.

Jim: That's cool. They build it there permanently or do they

Stevan: they built it at Swan and then they shifted into the town center, I think it is.

Yeah,

Jim: yeah, yeah.

Glenn: Can I just do a quick shout out? The, uh, state and, um, regional governments got, uh, applications, you know, 20-100 grand to build stuff like this. Um, and, uh, uh, common arts has agreed to a, so if you have some sort of idea to say, well, look, we'll build this. It's [01:08:00] like hundred grand worth of budget.

Um, just put it out there.

Jim: Cool.

Glenn: They probably won't let us burn it, but, um, but if, yeah, if you wanna put it in the local town, for example, um, and you could use that money to include, you know, your engineer fees and like, you know, whatever sort of extra costs involved,

Jim: you'd have to get some proper plans.

Glenn: Need

you've got

in the press

Stevan: is what is the budget for this year's? It'll be similar to last year's build. So for this year, what is the budget? Do have approximates for that?

Glenn: I think it's 12 grand for both effigy and temple.

Jim: Yeah. So that was the same, um,

Glenn: don't quote, but it's roughly that.

Jim: Yeah, that was the budget, um, for this year.

Glenn: So put that in [01:09:00] perspective.

Burning seeds. Um, effigy used to be 25 grand and the um, temple is 20, I think roughly numbers. So they're much smaller budgets, uh, say that. But if you're being creative and, uh, especially with your materials, because that's where you spend most of your budget on. Yeah. You can really make that budget go long way.

Jim: Yeah.

Glenn: And food supplied and, uh, that food additional and like a.

Stevan: And is also the limitations with the, the, the structure, the size of the structure as well.

Glenn: Uh, yeah, the permit, it keeps getting bigger. Um, back to your, uh, thing about no burns, one of the strong conversations is about restricting, restricting the size of the burns. Like we don't need to be build and bigger than Ben Hur.

And um, the smaller the go, the more intricate you can go, you can do more performance, more puppetry. So I think that the scale that we're doing at the moment is ideal scale. I personally wouldn't wanna go any bigger. I think we've got permits to go bigger, but again, [01:10:00] depends on your concept. Of course.

Jim: Yeah.

Stevan: Yeah. It also depends on, depending on the population that we have. So seed seeds a bigger population than underland. So yeah, because you want that communal space to be more, uh, very, I, I guess more approachable, like you can actually feel like we're talking about with the aura of these structures.

Glenn: Yeah, I mean the other big issue is that if you go above sort of four and a half, five meters in height, your logistics completely change because you need them to have licensed, uh, either scaffold or you've gotta have people with tickets that can use machinery that's expensive, really slows it down, restricts things.

I mean, it gets exponentially more complex and difficult and expensive to go above four and a half meters.

Jim: Yeah. It's much nicer to work on something's human scale, you know, and especially in that term, like how we're talking about, you know, how to make it inclusive. If you can have something that you can build basically working on the ground, which is kind of how.[01:11:00]

The frog and the temple worked this year. Like they were both taken apart in sections and like we had the body and then the legs, sorry, the head on the ground and was able to work on them both separately at that scale. It makes it a much more approachable sort of, and way easier to manage. You don't have to wear about safety or as much of about safety of heights and that sort of stuff, so,

Stevan: so it's like a Ikea flatbed kind of you assembly

Jim: Exactly.

Stevan: Bit by bit.

Jim: Stack it on top, like a big wedding cake is how we did the, uh, how the temple was done. Also, speaking of that, you know, like yeah, you know, yeah, if it went any higher you'd have to definitely hire in bigger cranes and that sort of stuff

Glenn: again, and.

Stevan: Yeah. So if you love to, to, to do yourself in Ikea, you should come and build a temple then.

Jim: For sure. For sure.

Stevan: That's the next level. Next step. Progressively. Yeah.

Glenn: Or we could just go burn in Ikea down. [01:12:00]

Stevan: Have you ever, have you ever tried to play hide? Uh, played hide and seek there in Ikea? Hide. and seek,

Jim: nah.

Just start using all the, you know, the random bedrooms and furniture. Nah, I haven't been to one of them for years.

Stevan: So we talk about the, so I love the, uh, burner generated discussions that's happening around social media. There's one particular one that I wanna highlight. It's, it's, uh, by Erin Susan Killian Del Castello.

So she wrote about rethinking the temple at seed and some of the themes or takeaways. Uh, we should really so many people, miss the Potential of the place, what she writes in. And she has three, um, several things that's required if we're to rethink, sort of like make it a more sacred place temp, especially for the temple.

Do you guys have any, have you guys read this piece that you wrote on Facebook and [01:13:00] you guys got any thoughts on that?

Glenn: Yeah, I mean, I'm very supportive of it. Um, you know, and that really does honor the tradition that David Best originally had. Uh, and if we're talking about suicide or other really major loss or, you know, also some really happy stuff, these places can be very heavy and deep.

And if you've got other people there, you know, getting rowdy and having, having a party, which was, it was great, but you know, there's probably, maybe this time of place isn't easy for that. Um, and my understanding is that Erin was, was wanting to, to create more awareness that, that this space is being used in that way by a lot of people, um, to bring a bit more respect to these spaces.

And, um, and I think they also had a strategy of having like a collective that, um, would hang out and sort of, um, just softly sort of, um, create that culture.

Stevan: Yeah. She talks about, yeah, she talks about, uh, offering [01:14:00] to hold a space for her theme camp mates, you know, and for other, other people. So it, it's, it's, it's a kind of space where in the default world, it's kind of taboo to be sharing these kind of feelings or sorrows with strangers.

So, yeah. And she highlights, uh, these, these three, well, communication ahead of the event is key if you wanna rethink what the temple represents. The other one is. The right design, and she talks about it being completely different from the rest of the burn. It's like even, even the effigy. So it's completely within, its its own kind of space there.

Unique space. And the other thing that she talks about is seeing examples in use. And one example would be like a program of, of, uh, completive music or something that can be like, like you were saying, a performance or something like that as well, just to educate and give some awareness out there as well as a background, as you know, for you Jim, it, it's a [01:15:00] connection for people.

Jim: Totally. I think, yeah. I think.

If they're gonna built, they should be built with that intention. And I would say, yeah, like design can have such a huge impact on them. You know, like creating a space that encourages that sort of reflection. I think. Yeah, it's, I know how, you know, she talked on how it's like, it's hard to kind of like educate in the moment, you know, if it's clashing with a space and you, this might be like a controversial opinion of mine, but like, I always found, like burning seed was the first burn that I ever went to.

And yeah, I never, I didn't often connect with the temple at that size. And there was, I think there's something about the fact that it's held, it's within the, the gathering. So you can't, you [01:16:00] can't, like pilgrim, you can't go into like a mini pilgrimage to it. It's kind of, everything's already around you. So I don't know, like if that has an impact on that.

Like it's hard to take the party away from it when the party is all around it. Whereas at other burns, you know, if it, if it has a little bit of distance, it's something you have to go to away and you got you lit, you physically walk away from the party that helps to bring reflectiveness to it. I think that would be my sort of thoughts, but I think it's definitely,

Stevan: yeah, she mentioned, yeah, Erin writes in, in her, in her piece about blazing Swan.

Uh, that was really transformative for her, the experience. Um, and, and it was because it was a bit further away.

Glenn: Yeah,

Jim: definitely. Yeah.

Glenn: And I heard one, one Sunday afternoon a blazing swan violinist playing at their temple. It was very beautiful experience. I also just wanted to mention that the, um, that Tiffany that was, uh, [01:17:00] co-leading the nautilus, um, process that had a very strong intention about creating a sacred space.

Um, and use the spiral to actually disconnect people from the, um, festival and then bring them into the space. And then inside was a, and it was that, um, ceremony of walking around. Uh, and then once you're in that inner space, there was, um, uh, you know, a shrine type arrangement there. So there was a lot of intent to creating a sacred space.

And, and she was also exploring, um, this very ancient creature. Uh, I think it's from dinosaur times. Don't quote me on that, but it's very ancient, the united facing extinction because, um, the acidification of the ocean through to carbon dioxide. So, you know, she was also dealing with, you know, um, something that was very emotional to her personally.

A mass extinction of, of our, of our, you know, complete collapse of our, um, natural world.

Jim: Yeah, definitely. [01:18:00] Yeah. That journey. And that was gorgeous. You know, so I. Yeah, like the intention of the group behind it as well as like really considered design can have a really strong impact. And then, and I think that's things that like the, like the temple creators can control, but then in terms of, yeah, that sort of like community education invitations and all that sort of stuff, that's where it has to kind of like just be opened up to the community to be like, okay, now you, this has been built for you.

Please use it. Respect or invite people to use it in that fit for it. Reflect. So where it kind of turns out to everyone else, like, you know, to kind of use it, um, appropriately or experience, like have your experiences.

Stevan: So when we, so when we talk about having the right design or having one that resembles, uh, I guess more like a [01:19:00] temple, um, is it, yeah.

I mean, what, what, what. Uh, impressions of what a temple should be like. I mean, this year's, this year's, uh, was probably a great example because the first comments people were saying was that, that it's very temply, whether that's a word to describe a temple, of course it's a temple. It's temply Yeah. But the image or the, or the, or the, the vision that people had straight away was Yeah.

From an ancient kind of influence, kind of inspired design. And Asian cultures are known for their temples.

Yeah. So aesthetically, do we need to have something that is temply? Well, what is a temple?

Glenn: I think it needs to function as a temple. Um, and there's a lot of religious, um, and cultural history. So you're talking about the Asian, um, inspiring.

You could also go right back to, to the, um, druids of the uk uh, uh, Northern Europe where they had stone circles. [01:20:00] I mean, that was holding its space. Um. You know, uh, through to sort of churches and a whole bunch of different buildings. I, I think the architecture of, uh, Aruna's design, which was a very unique spin on a traditional design, really resonated as a temple.

Um, but I think where Erin's coming from is more, it needs to be a functional space. You sort of disconnect people from the festival so they can, you know, explore their emotions.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Glenn: That's my understanding.

Stevan: Yeah. And what are your thoughts about Guardian temples? Oh, sorry. Yeah. Temple Guardians.

Glenn: Well, if we can find volunteers, I think it's a, a really good thing.

It's like anything, uh, these burns, it's, uh, there's a lot of ideas for whether there's people willing to, that are inspired to do that step up.

Jim: Yeah. I guess I would, yeah. My second burning seed, I think I was part of that first Temple Guardian crew actually for the, yeah, for that temple that had the glass that cracked open.

It was. Yeah, I don't know. [01:21:00] It's like, I think how she mentions like you don't want it to be, this a role of where you're trying to like creep on people as they're there. I think a Temple Guardian, like when it is a really powerful place, like if the Guardian is there to, you know, support people in there, their process, emotional processing, I think that's a really powerful and important role.

But I would kind of hope that it was, oh yeah, I would hope that there was enough sort of like conversation and community engagement.

Stevan: Uh, thanks for coming on guys. Do you guys wanna talk about anything else? Mention anything else?

Jim: No, I would just say, yeah, thanks Stevan for having this podcast and anyone who's interested in ever, you know, being part of an effigy or a temple.

I think it's definitely a worthwhile experience. I think everyone should build a temple. Everyone should build an effigy. It doesn't mean you have to design it, but just get involved. It makes the experience of being at a burn so much nicer. Like [01:22:00] you really feel part of it in another way.

Glenn: Yeah, and if you have any perceived barriers, um, please contact me personally, or there's a bit of a collective forming for inclusion and support.

Um, so those barriers hopefully could be overcome. And if you're a bit shy, then join a build crew. And the great thing about build crews is you learn skills. So if you've got no idea about how a hammer works, that's fine. We can show you. We're really into skill sharing. So yeah, come along and get involved.

Um, the email came out this morning, um, inviting people to do an application. If you are not out, signed up to the mailing list, then get on the mailing list. Also jump on the Slack channel, um, that Underland got, that you can, um, ask questions and I'll just, uh, read out paragraph from the newsletter. To support your application.

There will be one more info session and feedback opportunities during February with applications due by the end of February. In March we will decide on the winning application and then the work begins in April. So yeah, if you miss the [01:23:00] last webinar, um, uh, hopefully they'll upload it at somewhere. Um, we'll try track that down.

But there's another webinar coming on so you can answer through the process, uh, hear a bit more, ask questions, um, and yeah, hopefully get involved. And yeah, if you're not sure of a concept, you could just pitch that. You go, look, I'm not sure, but I've got this sort of idea kicking around. Or some of my mates are thinking this or that.

'cause yeah, we can always have a conversation.

Jim: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to be a complete idea. It starts

Glenn: get amongst it.

Stevan: Yeah. It just starts, yeah. It starts with the, with this little spark, little, little idea.

Yeah. Are, are there any other art projects that you guys wanna share? You guys, what's, you guys got anything big planned or any little projects that you wanna talk about?

Glenn: I'm hoping to, um, hoping to debut, uh, a piece of paperwork on for a few years at Burning Seed this year, which, uh, doesn't involve fire. Um, so yeah. Wish me luck for the next round of funding.

Jim: Exciting. Exciting.

Stevan: It is. Yeah. How about you, Jimbo

Jim: I've got nothing planned at the [01:24:00] moment. I'm kind of coming off the back of back to back festivals and art and I've got my downtime, I've got a couple of weeks off in March, which is when I might start looking at the next coming year.

Yeah. I'm still coming down a little bit from the effigy this year, but I definitely wanna be involved in doing some more come next season. So watch this space.

Stevan: Cool. Okay. Thanks Glenn. And, and Jimbo for coming on the show. Appreciate you guys coming together, this, uh, inspiring work, what you guys do, awesome work.

And um, yeah, thanks for all the information sharing and talking about your backstory. Loved it. Uh, hopefully you get you guys back on again. Talk more Art. So Underland this year. See you guys there on the paddock.

Jim: We'll see you there. Thanks so much.

Stevan: Alright, any other shout? Any other mentions you guys?

Shout out to your crew, Jimbo, so, you know.

Jim: Oh, totally. I wanna thank you all my crew for jumping on board this year. Couldn't have done it without all of you. Yeah. Mark, [01:25:00] Andrew, Nick, Ronnie. Oh my gosh. I'm someone else but everyone on. Thank you Axel Glenn, thank you for creating such a great mentoring experience at as well.

Glenn: Yeah. Could I also do a big shout out to the actual committee? Um, and all the people that do all the, like less sexier work, they're building cool sculptures. Um, someone's doing accounting and database stuff and whole bunch of jobs. Um, and it really does take a community to build this artwork and there's a whole bunch of people that, um, really contribute that really underpin this work.

And so a big, big thank you and love to, to all the people that are doing that work, and a big thank you to all the fire sort of safety support people and all the rangers that make it safe and all that. So, yeah. Uh, that it, one of the things that really inspires me to do this work is the, um, the fact that it is an actual, genuine community.

I mean, it's different than a lot of festivals. You pay your [01:26:00] money, you go get entertained and consume and go home. Like this is, this is very special family.

Stevan: See you guys. thank you .