Stevan: [00:00:00] Hi, uh, Bonzaar. Welcome Kiaora. Everyone, which means have life or be healthy. Hopefully I pronounced that right. Uh, this episode we'll focus on Kiwi Burn Its background organization and Kiwi Burn 2025. With me, I have Andy and Julia who are actually on site right now at Hunt Hunterville. Welcome guys. How we going?

Andy: Thank you very.

Stevan: Now Gates already opened and you guys are actually right in the middle of Kiwi Burn. How are things going?

Julia: I

Andy: spectacularly,

Julia: yeah, it's really chill. Really, really easy atmosphere this year so far. Give us time,

Andy: like under the water scales. No one knows

Julia: exactly.

Stevan: Well, it's exciting. You've got the effigy burn happening in one day.

Is that correct?

Andy: That's correct. Yeah, 24 hours

Stevan: now. Well, I wanna talk about the effigy and the temple this year, but should we leave that spoiler towards, like the end of the discussion, we can cycle back to it. So this year we've got quite a few Aussie burns attending it also as well. So I just wanna shout out and for the first time I think [00:01:00] the, it's their first Kiwi burns, so shout out to all the Aussie burners out there.

You see who's helping out, probably blowing their minds right now. Uh, how does it look on site right now, guys?

Julia: The weather's beautiful. The sun's been shining. It's been dry. Uh, we're in a bit of a valley here, so the, the nights do get relatively cool, but the weather's been amazing. We are expecting rain in a couple of days, but then New Zealand weather forecast can be trusted, but look out the window basically.

So, yeah, so far it's going really well. And one of our, um, uh, our site manager 2IC is actually an Aussie burner, and this is his first, first kiwi burn.

Andy: And, uh, we had our first night last, our official night last night, so everybody's, um, warmed up, dancing away, music blaring, ramping up for, um, tomorrow night for the effigy burn.

Stevan: Well, for, for the listeners out there, what's the temperature like? What's the average temperature and um, how cold does it get? Ooh,

Julia: so average temperature during the day has been in the, in the twenties. I can give you a hot, uh, so it's 22 at the moment. High will be 25. At the moment, it's a bit cloudy. [00:02:00] It's, it's just past midday for us.

And at night it gets down to, there was a couple of nights ago, we were in the single digits, about nine, nine degrees. That gets a bit, a bit nippy, but sort of 12 to 14 degrees at night.

Stevan: Yeah. So how's the situation with the burn permits? Uh, you know, you guys are holding this event in summer and usually with, uh, with our summers, it's, it's quite, you know, too hot to burn and it's quite dangerous.

And there's, uh, also, there's forestry, uh, you know, regulations as well. What's the situation with the burn permits, uh, in New Zealand?

Andy: So, the district we're in is one.

Farms and things like that. So every year we are basically operating on the shoulder of a fire restriction or a total fire ban and we came close this year. Fortunately we got a couple of weeks where we got in sufficient rain for them to down rate it. We've had an event about three years ago where we managed to persuade them to delay the fire, complete fire ban from the Friday night to the Monday.

So we managed to squeeze our two burn [00:03:00] and that was because we have a full service site, so full a and full team. So we managed to the new service to hold off for 48 hours. Let

Julia: they're also burners. That helps.

Stevan: Yeah. And, and when did you, and when was it, when did the build start? When did you guys start preparing for this ever?

Andy: Uh, each year we start around the fourth or 5th of January. Um, so we have, people have their New Year's Eve celebration, then they move on to site with us. So there's, you know, nearly three weeks build beforehand, and then there's just on a week back down afterwards.

Stevan: And what was, what was experience like this year compared to previous years?

You said it was a bit easier build, bit more relaxed.

Andy: Yeah. Yeah. There's a good team being built up and who's our MPW lead is doing a tremendous job building up a, you know, a very good culture, a very good community. Everybody's wanting to come back each year and they're just all working as one big happy family team.

Yeah. And, and that means a lot. They have a lot of fun. It also helps. They also have dobros that helps too.

Stevan: What's that for?

Andy: Those in those in Australia who dunno. So do BROS is a [00:04:00] double brown beer. So the equivalent perhaps of your Triple X over there. Um, so that's the mascot for the MPW team is Dobros.

Julia: Well, sun warmed do bros. It's terrible beer, but it's the, it's the drink of of kiwiburn.

Stevan: What does it actually taste like? then? if it's terrible.

Julia: I don't drink that.

Stevan: I'm fascinated

Julia: don't, I don't touch it. It does not, it does not pass my quality standards.

Andy: Some say it tastes like shit. Some say it tastes like piss.

Some say it taste like beer, but then that depends on your taste, buds.

Stevan: It's probably all the above, but so how, how was the, uh. Were there any issues or any, anything that we can, that you guys, you could learn from from this year? Anything different?

Julia: Always. I think one of the things that we're getting really good at is having continuity from year on year with the people.

And that just helps making things a lot smoother. Like Andy's mentioned, xanthi, this is her second year in charge of, of our MPW Ministry of Public Works, uh, who are our onsite [00:05:00] infrastructure team. And, but yeah, I mean there's, there's always learnings.

Andy: Next year is always better.

Stevan: That's right.

Andy: So, and also each year we bring new blood into the teams.

Um, so they look at things with fresh eyes and have new ideas. And we're also investing a lot in infrastructure and assets. So as those get nailed down each year, then we move on to the next project. So yeah, we're always improving. So two events we go, we put water on site. Um, so that took away a lot of stress and, uh, for the participants having to bring their own water on site, it was no longer an issue.

Um, and we just tackle projects like that one at a time.

Julia: It should also be said that our site is somewhat unusual, uh, compared to many burns. We are in a paddock, so when we are not here, there's literally sheep and cows roaming the field. So it is grass. There are, there's a forest. There's a river, a river that we can swim in.

So it's quite a lush environment that, that we are in. So for us to have water on site just made sense and it's allowed us to [00:06:00] focus more on sustainability so people can carpool easier. They can take public transport if they don't have to log 20 liters of water each. So we literally have water dispensers around the corner that can people fill up their camp showers and whatever water they need for their everyday needs.

Andy: Yeah, that's a, so each, each, each year something will happen. That becomes a learning exercise for us. So two years ago we had, what we know we know is mud burn. So when we had torrential rain and from that we learned a lot lessons about how to handle things in terms of flooding and evacuation and getting vehicles off site.

Um, so we have all those plans set in place and tested and the people involved are still with us. So we've got the experience on site as well.

Stevan: Yeah. With the initiative to. Uh, with the water supply, uh, it actually alleviates a lot of, uh, pressure on, on, on people. Yeah. Bringing, bringing board their own water.

Um, but it, it is, it is, uh, you're self-reliant, so it should something that we should do naturally anyway, but, uh, it's, it's a luxury to have it.

Julia: It [00:07:00] it is. Yeah.

Andy: So, so Kiwi Burn was involved with the green community, um, in, and we most, so. So you have self-reliance as an individual if you're a member of a camp.

Then the self-reliance camp level, the self-reliance at an onsite level and then the self-reliance is Kiwi Burn Incorporated. And then self-reliance in terms of Kiwi community. So when we looked at it that way, having individuals being self-reliant from water wasn't good for the environment. Being self-reliant at a,

to looking at about self-reliance being purely by individual.

Julia: Yeah. We discussed this on the executive committee, which is our sort of organizing structure that we have for kiwi burn, [00:08:00] and we discussed this at length, like does this. You know, uh, go against the self-reliance principle. And exactly as Andy said, when we announced it to the community, there was virtually no pushback.

Everybody's like, it absolutely made sense. You're in a paddock, there's heaps of rain about why wouldn't we harness that and focus on sustainability and making things easier for people? It's, it was a, a relatively easy exercise for us to put water on site. All the reasons Andy just mentioned. It just makes sense.

Stevan: Yeah. Well, there any other initiatives discussed? This is interesting. Yeah. Um, it's, it's something that, um, I like you're saying as, as, as we progress in into the future, uh, we must look at all these issues in terms of how we're gonna be more efficient and, you know, more, uh, you know, caring for the environment as well as be, uh, adaptable to the changing climates and environments.

I. Were there any more, other, other considerations that you guys talked about?

Andy: Yeah, I mean [00:09:00] we've, we've done other things which are pretty standard now for most, most burns in terms of food composting. We've also installed composting toilets and we've got humanure composting on site. So that's been trialed and tested and watched, covid woke us up in terms of, um, portaloos.

So previously we had no trouble sourcing ports for our event when COVID came along and we restarted the whole industry as far as construction had changed, they no longer had stoppages over Christmas New Year. So the port pool that we used to tap into no longer existed and we had six weeks to suddenly find a hundred odd port gradually replacing those composting toilets.

We also went out portaloos serviced rather than supplied and the next project we've got, we. Secondhand portaloo into composting toilets. So that's the next thing on the agenda. But ideally, we wanna become self-reliant as a site without needing to use portaloos and having them serviced and dumped and pumped and [00:10:00] all the rest of it.

We've also looked at things like transport of humans and goods to site. So we tried to organize something with theme camps if they wanted to organize a container load and stuff coming from main population centers like Auckland, but we were adamant that it wasn't gonna be the organizers who had to run it.

We have enough to do. If the community wants to effectively carpool their equipment, then we'll assist them, but they need to run it, and we haven't quite got there yet.

Julia: Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Stevan: Uh, a look, logistics is, is, is, is a big, big hurdle and a big, uh, consideration. Yeah. So you were gonna say, Julia,

Julia: uh, we're just, we're just taking a look at all the things that are, that are, you know, pollutant and what we can do about it. You know, I mean, generators for example, if we could do something about that.

And there's a number of conversations in a [00:11:00] number of different areas of trying to focus on sustainability and where it makes sense and where we can,

Stevan: are you using a lot of solar kind of. Energy or solar kind of technology?

Andy: A little, a little bit. We're trying to improve that. There's a lot of thing camps that do use it.

And we also have you like, you know, the village's concept. It's a village of people who are using solar. I'm also part of the wrap group associated with, with where we're trying to get rid of, generate fossil fuel generators and turn them over to solar power. Um, so we've started a group in New Zealand to do that as well.

And also our arts department is very much in favor of getting rid of fossil fuel generators for art pieces and converting solar. Um, so it's, yeah, at the start of that part,

Julia: there's actually three theme camps this year up from two last year who are entirely powered by electric vehicles.

Stevan: Electric vehicles.

Wow, okay. Yeah. That's interesting.

Julia: Yeah.

Stevan: Yeah. So how did they get there in the first place? They must have drained out all the battery or they had spares, I guess

Julia: they make it work. Yeah. So they, they drive [00:12:00] down. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and charge batteries. And then, um, with three, one camp has about, I think they've got about 12 members and they're very well lit at night and they do their cooking needs and everything else or whatever isn't, isn't gas powered basically.

And they source that all from the vehicles three in that case. And apparently they're still able to drive off site. There is a, to be fair, there's a vehicle charging station about 20 minutes from here.

Stevan: Yeah. Right. So this is, uh, the location is Hunter Hunterville. So what, what, what's the local town or local community like there?

Andy: They're wonderful. Um, we've been here now for 11 years. The first few years we were here, kept a very low profile. We just came along, had our event went disturbance and I became involved seven or eight years ago when, when I came involved with that, I started reaching out to the community because they had lots of [00:13:00] questions.

They thought it was all a bunch of drunken hippies, drugs sex rock and roll, the usual story. And we have managed to, um, get them knowing us much better than that. So we hold a community barbecue, the events, we invite people who.

We feed them, we talk them, we entertain them, we show them our art, and it's just changed things dramatically over the last few years. They've always been supportive, but they just didn't know what they were supporting before. Now they do, they're even supportive. Um, and a lot are joining in, so there's quite locals who are coming as a burner to our events.

We're also getting involved with a community projects reach out. Um, whether it's with setting up for some of their events, um, we've provided fire spinning demonstrations. We did one in, did one in September. We did one in [00:14:00] December. We've got another one in beginning of April. And we're just also intending to help with, if you like, civic projects as well.

So whether it's the likes of tree planting, trying to build a building or something like that. And then in addition to that, the big one is public art. So we're endeavoring to get kiwi burn art permanently in place, whether that's for three months, six months, two years, or whatever, ranging from small art up to some of our large art and that, that will just need a change in approach by the arts in terms of the materials they use.

Um, it's no longer to, could last three days or five days. It's gotta last three months, six months or a year. And, you know, sustaining the weather conditions and people climbing on it 365 days, not just seven days. But that's, that's the really big project we're working on.

Julia: And just a quick clarification. Um, Andy used the word iwi.

So Iwi is a local, um, the local Maori tribe, basically. Uh, as you can imagine, New Zealand is, has many tribes that govern different areas, um, in the wrong [00:15:00] ways. Uh, and it's obviously very important for us to work closely with. Uh, NA who happened to be the local iwi here, but just wanted to explain that word quickly

Andy: and, and, and they, they, again, are very supportive because the, um, Maori culture is, is very much family based and what they call MA based.

And they view us as having a similar, um, structure to our, our community and our culture. And they know that we look after the environment. They're happy for us to have the event here. Um, they welcome us and the only real involve, direct involvement they ever, ever asked for is if we ever do anything that involves the river.

Um, we just run past them. So there's any artwork or anything. We just, just run that past them and get their approval. Or they might have some suggestions or directions as to how it could be improved. Um, no.

Stevan: Yeah. Can we talk, uh, about the, the, the site, the actual site, um, the layout and, and the land as well?

What can you tell us about in [00:16:00] terms of, uh, do you guys always changing it around or

Julia: not so much anymore? No. We've got effectively three paddocks. So we've got our top paddock, which is effigy paddock. That's where the party is, that's where the sound camps are. All the doof-doof. Happens up there and it's genuine, like even elevation levels.

Um, then we've got the middle paddock, which is where we are now. So, um, not far out the door here is our temple. This is more, you know, daytime sounds or the, the, the theme camps that are here. And then we have a lower paddock, again, down an. Small embankment where there's a lot of general camping. And that's also where some kids camps are, for example, you know, a little bit further out of the way.

Stevan: Yeah, a bit more quiet camping.

Julia: Yeah. Yeah.

Andy: And then that lower paddock then backs onto a forest. And once you walk through the forest, you're then into the river flats and the river. Um, so we don't allow any camping in the forest, um, due to the danger of falling branches, but we use that during the [00:17:00] day and also at night for people to walk through.

We have artworks in there, but we just don't allow permanent camping in there. And then we're basically down in a bit of a basin. So the surrounding area has very high cliffs, um, which works generally, you know, most of far as

some.

Up to three or kilometers away, and we have to put in a noise management plan and monitor that during the event report afterwards. Um, we go door knocking with the neighbors before the event, during the event when we put up the sound equipment, when we take it down and we follow up with afterwards with a thank you from Kiwiburn, whether that's a bottle one or something like that.

Um, but yeah, and then as Julia said before, we're on a, uh, beef and, um, sheep farm. Um, so we work with the farm, the landowner, um, to make sure that the paddocks are available to us when [00:18:00] they, when we arrive in the beginning of January is on the tail end of their hay making. So it's can be a bit, uh, a bit dicey at times to make sure the hay's been cut before we setup.

We just recognize that we do, we do impact as operation. So we are great. Very grateful for being on site here. And you can actually come here a year after the event, look down from the top of the hill onto the site and you can still see effectively the impact and the imprint of the marquees on how it, the grass.

So it's a lot of people think it's nothing. It's just camping for a week, but it farmer year round. So we're very appreciative of being to here every year

Julia: and burn scars as well. Those stick around for a while because it's literally on grass.

Andy: We are very fortunate that the landowner wasn't quite a burner when we arrived.

Julia: He is now,

Andy: he might have been burner adjacent to some people, but he's now a solid convert to our cult.

Julia: We're not a cult.

Stevan: Yeah. So you built that relationship throughout the years. Would you like to talk about that a bit more in terms of [00:19:00] how important that is to it? It is private land, I'm assuming?

Andy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a family owned farm. It's been in, I think, four or five generations, so it goes back to the 18 hundreds type of thing, and we're in very close contact with the owner. We would consider ourselves friends as far as, quite a few of us are concerned. I make a point of, I'm based up in Auckland, which is five and a half hours away.

I try and make a point of being down here every six to eight weeks and I meet the landowner. I meet the local council various times if they available members or representative. That's not all that regular at the moment because they.

Just building relationships, even if it's just going out, having a cup of coffee and catching up with people, finding out what their families are up to and what's going on in the community, what their concerns are, how we can help.

Stevan: And Julia, in [00:20:00] terms of marketing communications.

Julia: Oh, well, I mean, yeah. So I, uh, for, for clarity, so I look after, yes, the communications department, although we are rebranded as the Department of Propaganda.

Trust us.

Stevan: Yes.

Julia: Um,

Andy: at your peril. Yeah.

Julia: We might be telling the truth. We might not. Um, and we, uh, uh, we look after the website. We've got a newsletter, social media, also regular media. So I've done, um, other interviews and whatnot before liaison, uh, of any kind. Also graphics, design, photography, all of those sorts of things.

We certainly don't need to market kiwi burn.

Stevan: No.

Julia: Uh, we're heavily

Stevan: word of mouth

Julia: subscribed.

Stevan: Mm-hmm.

Julia: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, this is a little bit of a bucket list burn for many international people as well. We have many Americans here. We have many Europeans here. Obviously many of that come year after year as well.

But it is one of those things that people put on their list. Like, oh, one day I'll make it to Kiwi burn because we are, it. The, arse end [00:21:00] of the world here, so a little bit harder to get to, but yeah, so we certainly don't do any kind of marketing, but very much involved with raising awareness of what this event is actually about.

Again, I'm, I'm one of those people, like even I'm in a reasonably, uh, high powered corporate job and, you know, they know my involvement, uh, with Kiwi Burn. I, I, I have no, no qualms about talking about that. Some do, of course, that's perfectly fine. I don't. And, um, so always on the forefront of making sure that people understand what Kiwiburn actually is.

Which is primarily to me, an art festival. So it isn't about, like Andy mentioned, the drugs sex and rock and roll. Rock and roll. I mean, that is a part of it. Not gonna lie, as you know, but it's also, uh, just an amazing community, which is probably the thing that I'm most proud of, so, yeah.

Stevan: Yeah. You mentioned the, the unique, uh, animals and wildlife, there are on site, like sheeps and cows and what, what else can we.

Find it's, uh, quite unique to New [00:22:00] Zealand. Kiwis?

Julia: No, no Kiwis on the site. No

Stevan: Hedgehogs.

Julia: Uh, we've got hedge. Yeah, hedge. Funny you should say. Yes. We've had a number of hedgehogs run ins. We've got, you know, there's quite a few possums. There's actually a feral cat population on land, which is very much considered a pest.

Um, obviously cats are not native to New Zealand and they do a lot of damage to the, to the bird population. Many, many birds, of course, and yeah. But you know, other than that, there's, there's the sort of farm animals that you get, get around. We've actually, um, been unofficially dubbed sheep burn this year because there's a group of about three or four sheep that just keep wandering sight.

We keep chewing them out. They, there's obviously a way through. We've considered wristband them and just, just welcoming them into the community. So the sheep are a little bit more part of this year than they.

Andy: Them into that group as well. Yep. The one other, um, [00:23:00] animal species we have down here is native bats. Um, so they're based in the forest and the farm owner, along with other farmers in the area are actually working on providing a green belt going through this area for them. Um, so we very wary of that and we've had people who are taking note of whether we have any impact on the, um, bat population in terms of their feeding habits.

We believe we actually help it for a while because when we burn things, we attract moss and thats just, but yeah, we're, we're working with the local community and the farmers in the areas like that also with the condition of the river. Um, so there's drought and things in there. Um, so the local farming community isn't trying to improve the water quality population.

Um, so we keep in touch with them about that. But for our event, we don't allow anybody to put anything in the river, that's, there's soap, shampoo, or oil or anything like that.

But yeah, that's pretty much it.

Julia: I would actually say, um, one, [00:24:00] one other animal that's made its presence known more so than I've experienced previously are quite large wolf spiders. I have a pet one named Charlie and the portaloo that I tend to use. So we, we, we have chats every night. Um, but obviously this, this is New Zealand, so nothing's poisonous, nothing's gonna bite you.

I mean, they might bite, but they certainly aren't gonna cause any lasting harm.

Stevan: Well, in Australia they do bite.

Julia: Yeah. But, and they're, and they're, I mean, they're good size.

Stevan: Yeah. Well, give, give us a sense. Give us, you said big, give us a sense of like, um. An average palm.

Julia: Yeah, a co. A co I'd say a cup.

Stevan: Well, that would freak a lot of people out.

Julia: Yeah. Well, we had one,

Stevan: but they don't bite, yeah.

Julia: Yeah. I mean, I've, I've not heard any, any, uh, spider bites. We have quite a few bees as well, but I don't think we've had any bee sting so far. No. And obviously, you know, they live here, so we're invite invading their land.

Andy: So [00:25:00] actually has come site as operational sos phe, just casually wandering through the times.

Stevan: Yeah, its lush. Um, can't, I can't actually. So I've never been to Kiwi burn. New Zealand, so I can't wait to, uh, to visit and, uh, experience it. I've done a bit of research and now tell me, I've got this right now. Kiwi Burn is a mustard economy and DJs and Bogans are beloved, yeah, yeah.

Julia: Uh, well, yeah. DJs, DJs are, are made fun of. So if you, if you come to Kiwi Burn and you, you claim to be a dj, um, you better have a good sense of humor. Um, we've, we've, as the Department of Propaganda have pointed out many times, you know, there's about seven non DJs roughly give or take a half on site. So yeah, many, many people come and pride themselves on being dj.

We tolerate them. Really, I'm one of the seven non DJs. I believe it's six. [00:26:00]

Andy: I say I'm one of the other. Yes. So while we're in a position of power, we can still keep control of them. Yeah. Um, we, we do, we do follow the principle of inclusion, so we do allow them to come. Otherwise we would have a very small population.

Julia: We tolerate them. But yes, we are absolutely, this year we are a mustard economy, goes very well with sheep. So,

Stevan: and that, and that's from, uh, hippie Tim. Is that, is that right? He started the joke,

Julia: correct? He did, he did start, he did start that, uh, that rumor and then on Facebook it just took off.

Stevan: Yeah. I thought, I thought that was hilarious.

How snowballed. Yeah,

Andy: it's getting towards cryptocurrency territory.

Julia: Oh, it's a bit, yeah. It's some illegal mustard trading going on, on site, I'm sure of it.

Stevan: Yeah, that's right. It's a black market for it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well what about the, this year's, um, lottery system Now that's quite different. Haven't really experienced it.

I guess Burning Man used to do it as well. Let's talk about the, the lottery system that you guys adopted. The model

Julia: that started a couple of years ago, so three years ago for the [00:27:00] burn that happened, that was, was mud burn. I believe that was 2022 that the sale happened. We are heavily oversubscribed, as I mentioned, and we had virtually all tickets in baskets within 10 seconds.

Excuse me.

Andy: Yeah, so as Julia said, up until then, it was basically the keyboard warrior, but uh, you know, first, first, first served and there was lot of backlash from the community about that because obviously a lot of them were disadvantaged to them.

For the lottery. And then basically we completely randomized the order of who applied and we did all sorts of interest things as to how we randomized that. Sometimes it was based on how quickly it took something to, and it was run independently of us, so it wasn't us influencing it. And that would just reallocate position queue we tickets so, so that was [00:28:00] our first movement towards a lottery system.

And we're now in the process of effectively getting rid of the lottery system and moving to a 100 percent participation model or volunteering model. Some people will call it, depending on your definition of what volunteering is, but we mean that it includes things like participation and

so. 3 54 tickets to that lottery system. Um, next year plan is that there'll be zero lottery. Um, and everybody will be identifying as a, as a, as a contributor in one form or another.

Stevan: Yeah. If, if other burns are looking at that system, that ticketing, uh, lottery system, what, what are some of the issues or feedback from it?

Andy: Well, as I said before, the, the main thing really with the lottery was because we're oversubscribed. Um, obviously that's, [00:29:00] that's the problem. What we had to do was limit the number of tickets that people could buy. So if you went to the lottery, you could tickets and even if you on, you still couldn't go back for another buy.

And win lottery and buy two tickets. Careful with looking for multiples or multiple, make sure

Stevan: double, double,

Andy: double dipping or triple dipping.

Julia: Sorry about my coughing.

Andy: I think the only thing, other thing with the lottery was it just meant that because you were allocating that number of tickets to lottery, you have the likes of theme camps, um, who are saying, Hey, we contribute so much, but we don't get enough of our tickets for our theme camps to attend because you have to rely on the lottery.

So that was also one of the movers towards a contributing [00:30:00] model. And we do.

Absolutely. And obviously and Oh yeah. And they don't need tickets because they just fly in and fly out, so, yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that was, that was one of the things was thats were getting caught short because the lottery And so moving more towards that contributing model took away that anxiety Yeah. For the, but.

Stevan: Yeah, he tried it. Yep.

Julia: And you obviously mentioned we've just conjured up our own ticketing system.

Andy: No, I haven't mentioned that.

Stevan: Yes. well. We,

Julia: yeah, so we, we've been working with Quicket who, uh, south African Company has recently been bought by Ticketmaster, so you know, boohiss, corporate overlords. So we've got some really clever IT whizzes that worked with our services facilitator who is looking after ticketing among many other things.

And we've actually written our own ticketing system. I just [00:31:00] had a chat with one of the main architects and coders, uh, that wrote it. And I know ours and well months, days have gone into writing this. It was a lot of work. But he did just say just this morning. That in terms of the, the draw on his time during, in the, in the lead up the last week or two before the event and during the event.

It's been a fraction of what he had before, making all of his hard work over the last few months. Very much worth it. But, uh, we have our in-house ticketing system now. It's worked really well, so massive kudos to the team that's done this. There's still the odd ironing out, of course, as you know, as is with anything.

But it's worked. It's worked really quite well. Very, very proud of the guys.

Andy: And as Julia said, originally we've been using Quicket and they're a South African company, but they're originally, they're burners. Um, so developed from a and.

Parallel that [00:32:00] we wanted one source of truth through our volunteer management system, and we settled on using Airtable. So we would actually develop that first. And then the next logical step from that was rather than having to interface with quicket, we should have ticketing within the same group of apps.

And so that was the next step, was bringing to.

And it's, it's open source. So we're happy to share our experience and how we do things with others. We've already talked with a couple of burns in Australia that reached out to us. So yeah, that was, that was the reason, that was the sort of the final straw to make us come in house. And then as Julia said, we found out that the quicket, um, organization being sold, but no disrespect to them, individuals.

Excellent. Absolute. I'm sure they'll

around the world.

Stevan: Yeah. I do like the, [00:33:00] the volunteer based kind of ticketing structure. Do, do you think, uh, this whole. Sort of like educate or inform for people, more people about how the event runs

Julia: and how do you mean, sorry.

Stevan: Well, uh, if everything is, is, is not, uh, catered, we, we, we all do ourselves. Um, so it's a do-reaucracy sort of thing.

Julia: Yeah.

Stevan: The vol volunteer actually makes the, the burn go around.

Julia: Hundred percent. I mean, we had a, um, a chap who's taken it upon himself to create an app for the event guide, for example. He did it last year. He stepped up his game and he's, nobody asked him to do this. It's very welcome. It's a very good app and gives you the, the map and everything and also allows you to add personal events for yourself that aren't necessarily part of the event guide.

So you can actually build a little bit of a, a sort of a, of a, a plan for yourself. And that's a very good example I think, of somebody seeing a need and just doing it. And it works out really well and we've told everybody about it. Reception isn't [00:34:00] awesome on site, so it's available offline as well. But I think that's a perfect example of, like I said, somebody seeing a need and creating something in their own time, using their own resources that literally everybody can use.

Stevan: Yeah, that's what I love. You guys, uh, you guys have, you guys are setting the benchmark there, building your own apps and all that. I don't, I don't think we ever have that here, uh, for our. our burns so well done. Uh, especially with

Julia: Kiwi ingenuity. It's, it's, it's part of, honestly, it's, it's not just a burner thing.

It's a kiwi, it's a New Zealand thing.

Stevan: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Andy: It really comes from being so remote compared to other places having a small population. So although Australia is pretty close as, as being remote to other continent, large population to on new zealand if.

Stevan: Yeah, the event, the events guide looks, looks very, uh, there, there's a lot, there's there a lot [00:35:00] to do. Uh, have you guys, oh my God. Have you guys experienced anything in the last two days that you've been on site?

Andy: It's, it's actually Julia's annual headache doing the event guide.

Julia: Yeah, it's so much.

Stevan: Tell us about it.

Julia: It is hours, hour well days because we, so people put in events throughout, once we open events, which is about August time this year. So people can add events. Obviously there's also theme camp, but theme done descriptions, there's the map and there's the art map. And then sometimes there's descriptions about, like this year we're including artists own words about the effigy and the temple.

And, um, but we never know what we're gonna get in terms of the file to then create the, the physical a five event guide until we actually download it. As I'm sure you can imagine, people wanna get in at the last minute. Oh, I haven't done it yet. They've had months. You know, people so often they'll, they'll ask us to hold it for the last minute.

We work with printers in Auckland who are very patient and very good with [00:36:00] us, but the formatting of the event guide every year is an absolute pain in, in, in the, in the, in the, you know what? Because like I said, we don't know what we're gonna work with. So there's a lot of shuffling. I also have to go through, um, from a, uh, from a comms perspective, make sure nothing's being said.

That shouldn't be said. There's a number of things that are, that we, you know, we, we obviously don't condone drug use or anything like that. We can't have that in official communication, so making sure that that's, I mean, I, we had a visit from the police and I literally handed them

issue, but yeah, it's, I work, I designer of my comms team. We go through that and we arrive at a printable version every year. We get it done, but it's many, it's many sleepless nights.

Stevan: Was the, was the police presence, was it check, was it just a routine checkup or how's the, how's the relationship with [00:37:00] law enforcement?

Andy: Very good. Um, it's all part of that community outreach. It's also part of our resource, so Australia. Local district council has to issue permits to us, and that has various requirements and annual requirements that all emergency services have to be contacted. Generally with hospitals, mental health unit, people like that.

They just, the events running, what are the dates, blah, blah, blah. Site manager, phone number with the local community police, um, we actually invite them.

I can't say, but

Stevan: are they interested in participating?

Andy: Uh, they probably would. Do some of them have interest? Absolutely. I can safely say that we know there are certain members of our community uniform, but not when they're on site. But no, they're fully aware of what activities might go site. But they know that we as a community look after ourselves.

We have full medical support services. Um, so we have our contracted medical providers who [00:38:00] can take treatment to a certain level. They then have the Kiwi volunteers who they coordinate. But some of those volunteers are much more professionally qualified, schooled, experienced than the, um, professional hire service that we have.

And that means that those people can step in, if there's an emergency, they can then go to the next level. They can supply and administer drugs that our contract service can't. And we also obviously have immediate availability for helicopter evacuation. And those people can actually not only call it in, but they can also travel.

Local police know that local police, we support our community internally. We never impact the external community. We don't have people who are drunk and rolling around in the town or anything like that. They see our people come in and help clean up and participate in events. So they're very, very supportive.

And one thing I would like to point out is that Kiwiburn, many years ago started, um, drug testing. He did that initially on a unofficial basis because it was illegal [00:39:00] at the time. And that gradually developed and was happening unofficially. We couldn't advertise it, but everybody knew it was happening. And we were the organization, um, know your stuff, were pushing for it to be made legal.

We got it across the line once, um, it was vetoed by one vote. Um, but the second time around it became illegal in New Zealand and also supported in New Zealand. So you can test, for drugs, you can educate, obviously you do not promote drugs, but it's basically, um, harm reduction.

Stevan: Yeah. Well, yeah, the harm reduction.

What was the pushback? Why was it less miss votes, like people were against it?

Julia: Parliamentary vote, obviously. But yeah, people are just assuming that if you are there, that there's a correlation between, um, allowing drugs to be tested and people taking more drugs. Obviously, that is the wrong perception in that case, wouldn't you?

Drugs are gonna be a thing whether you want them to or not. Wouldn't you much rather know what's actually in them and keep our people safe?

Andy: So when it went through the [00:40:00] first time, it was even supported by both the, um, police association. Um, so those who represent the police front line. It was also supported by the police commission.

Um, but it was just a political, if you like, one that decided that they were gonna take a, against us from happening. But second time round it went through with full support and, um, our kiwi burners have been recognized. So they have received the queen service medal and things like that for their services to the country.

And it's now that program is now funded by the government and their model is being used elsewhere.

Julia: Yep. It, it makes everything so much easier if medical professionals know medical, what kind of drugs they might be dealing with versus with what people think they're taking. We, uh, populize this information as well.

So we'll say we've got more of one thing or another thing, or this type of drug isn't, you know, isn't as pure this year or what, you know, whatever. And, and we publicize that so to let other festivals know as well. If there's certain things happening in in the undercurrent, [00:41:00]

Stevan: yeah, I think

Andy: the whole process is totally anonymous, so there's no repercussion.

The police do not take action against anybody who having drugs tested or anything like that. And it also provides very useful feedback for the police in terms of what drugs are out there, whether there's bad, what the consequences could be for the emergency services. We've seen that in the last couple of years where there's been some folks that have been contaminated or whatever and that has to, um, serious medical, um, events through the country, but heads up advance, things are country and services can be prepare for.

Stevan: Yeah, education is very important. Now one of my favorite things, uh, is, is to listen to people's, uh, origin stories, the burner stories. Would you like to, to share, uh, with the listeners, uh, how you got involved in the community? Uh, and, and how did you find the, the localized Kiwi Burn community? How did you discover that?

Julia: I'd actually heard about Burning Man many, [00:42:00] many years ago. Uh, as you can tell by my accent, I'm not from around here. Um, and, um, I was traveling, um, across the US and this was in 2003 and I was in the area and I heard about Burning Man. However, I was also traveling with a cat, so I couldn't actually go.

Stevan: No pet allowed.

Julia: No pet allowed, no. And, um, and many years later I arrived at New Zealand and I was actually, uh, going on a, on a first date. With the person that happened to be the temple builder for the next Kiwi burn. Uh, we met in November, 2017 and he was building the temple for Kiwi Burn 18. And he spent much of our first date talking about the big erection that he was gonna be involved

Stevan: on a first date?

Julia: On a first date. And he told me a little bit about kiwi burn. Then I actually helped with building, uh, elements of the temple. Didn't make it to that burn, but started to [00:43:00] become involved as a volunteer very shortly after. So I've been volunteering for a year before ever coming to my first burn. This person and I, uh, are actually still very close friends.

We're no longer dating, but they're still very close friends. But he's introduced me into the community. I'd like to think I've made it my own. Now I've been on EXCOM for five years this year, and again, I was involved for a couple of years, you know, in, in other capacities, always as part of comms. Um, I can talk, I can write, so that makes sense for me to hang out in that department.

And, but again, it's, it's in my nature to wanna get involved pretty quickly. I always joke that all of us, certainly on the executive committee, there's a, there's a fierce sprinkling of neuro spice. Through all of us and other sort of traits that are common amongst us. We're all reasonably opinionated.

We're strong personalities, and we do this because we care and because we're in a position to actually make a difference and change the event. Some of the infrastructure [00:44:00] elements that we've brought on site such as water are changing the face of kiwi burn. I believe very much for the better, and I take enormous pride in being involved in that.

So that's, that's my story.

Stevan: Cool.

Andy: So, um, I became aware of Burning Man probably in the early two thousands. Um, so that was through my interest in art, particularly large art and particularly large public art. And I saw what was going on over there. I couldn't actually make it 'cause I was a self-employed consultant and couldn't afford to take time off.

And so then probably about eight years ago I decided hard enough, long enough, early, and six and Kiwi

made the mistake of the town hall meeting. And they announced there that the then treasurer was about to immigrate to the UK permanently and no one was putting their hand up and the society would be folding without all its officer. I had made the mistake of befriending the regional contact Lumos, who many on the podcast may know and happened to be standing [00:45:00] next to them and said, oh look, I, I've got accountancy background.

I can stand in for a few weeks before you recruit someone. So my hand was raised by Lumos. Seven years later, or eight years later, I'm still the treasurer.

Julia: Yeah.

Andy: Um, and then probably I think five, six years ago, we had a few changes from the chair rotating through and it didn't quite settle in. And so I, in as acting chair while we recruited somebody and spent a lot of time recruiting them, uh, we never found anybody.

So for treasury? Yeah. Or no, for chair. Chair initially, sorry. So in the end I said, look, I've been acting chair enough. I'm working with outside parties, like councils and people like that, and staying on the acting chair doesn't give them much confidence. So I would rather be the permanent chair and find a new treasurer.

And so I became permanent chair and basically I spent a lot of my time liaising with external parties. So most firms have somebody who does that dealing with councils and government agencies. And so that's what I've

[00:46:00] Kiwiburn. And it can be anywhere from sort of 20 hours up to 60 or 70 hours a week with the various roles that we do. Um, but we do it because we love it. That's our passion. We wouldn't be doing it otherwise. Yep. We do have to have thick skins, so a lot of people don't understand, and it's very various things at us, but I always say to our new facilitators, just grow a thicker skin, you know why you're doing it.

People will understand eventually, but we do sometimes have to make the tough decisions and it's really, we need, probably need do a bit more self-promotion to make people aware of what goes on behind the scenes. And we're doing that partly by bringing more and more people into the, if you like, the organization.

Um, so bringing in event delivery team rather than just having, giving people the, the exposure and experience to understand it's not just take only takes five minutes to get two thousand people on paddock. Um, it's actually probably three days of preparation, if not more. We actually more or less thinking about not just.[00:47:00]

I personally, I'm think about our 25th anniversary, which is another four years away. We've only just had our 20th, but let's start thinking about the 25th. Um, let's make that a big one. Yeah. Um, so there's a lot goes on behind the scenes and people also don't realize that once you get to a certain size, there's a lot more factors come into it.

Like councils, government regulations, health and safety. And so your team just gets larger and your responsibilities get larger. So there's a lot that has to go on. There's a lot of decisions they have to made, but the general community just aren't aware of. Yeah. But as I say, we do it because we love it.

We wouldn't be doing it otherwise.

Stevan: Yeah. Awesome. I'd love to hear more about the Kiwi Burn Organization. Should we take a quick break and, and we'll come back. I've got a Kiwi Burn Triva to test your memories that we can talk about previous Kiwi burn, uh, events as well. So how about we take a short break and we'll be right back after these burner messages.

Christian: Yo, it's Christian here from the camp of. Loose ends, uh, started the camp of loose ends a very [00:48:00] long time ago at Rainbow Serpent. Um, it's been been to nearly 20 burns, which have been Japan burn, kiwi burn, all three of Australia's burn modifiers, modifyre blazing swan, uh, burning seed, plus the big burn twice.

Um, been to 20 burns in total. Be be going over to Blazing Swan and also, um, setting up the camp of loose ends at burning seed this year, which would be great. So come down and enjoy yourself. Uh, I really love the Australian Burner community. Feels like people are very connected to earth, um, very connected to, to, you know, nature.

Um, whereas, you know, like going to all the other burns can, can be a little bit different. You know, America's not really, you know, a natural burn. It's like, how big can you go? Uh, Japan burns really quirky. Um. Kiwi burns really beautiful and soft and gentle, but you know, the people are, are like us. They're, they're a lot more connected into land.

Um, which is why I [00:49:00] really love the Australian Burning Man community because there is that, you know, that connection to land. It's not, not all about, Hey, look at me, I'm so, so cool. It's more about let's connect and, and really get in. Although that is prevalent, you know, and, and a functionality of all the burns.

Um, yeah, really beautiful space, burning man and, and, uh, love to be a part of it.

Lumos: Hi there. I'm Lumos. Kiwiburn is my home burn. Back in 2008, I drank long and hard, the Koolaide. As a result, I've ranged at many Australian burns This year I plan to continue my tasting of Aussie burns, taking in burning seed, blazing swan, and third degree with a side dish of Africa burn.

Stevan: Okay, we're back. Let's, how, how do you guys go with trivia? Do you guys love, love trivia?

Julia: Everybody loves trivia.

Andy: Doesn't mean we're good at it.

Stevan: I've got

Julia: No,

Stevan: I've got some kiwi burn trivia here for you. Uh, shall [00:50:00] we, let's see how you go with your memory. Uh, let's start. Okay, so question one, in what year was Kiwi burn not on?

Julia: It was two.

Stevan: When did, when didn't happen? That's right. Yes,

that's right. Not just one year. Yeah.

Andy: 2019 and 2022. Yep.

Stevan: Correct. Well done. Okay. Why was Kiwi Burn canceled in 2019?

Andy: Uh, the resource consent hadn't been, uh, processed.

Stevan: Julia did it. Do you know why?

Julia: No, no. That's, that's correct. So there was a resource consent issue in 2019.

Very different reasons for cancellations in 22. Um, there was a, there was a virus going around. I don't know if you heard of it, but it was a bit of a worldwide, you know, pandemic issue. We were, we burned in 2020 because our event is so early in the year we got away with it. But like before anybody knew what this COVID thing even was in 21 because of New Zealand's fairly, um.

Uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, no excuse.

Stevan: More progressive,

Julia: yeah, aggressive approach, I think is a good word. Um, we [00:51:00] were pretty much COVID free in 21, but by 22 it had crept up again. So we made the heart decision in December to not December of 21, to not have a burn for 22, and then the country went into, uh, restricting events two days before we would've otherwise happened.

So it was a good decision.

Stevan: Well, that was my my third question. Why wasn't kiwi burn? Why was Kiwi burn canceled in 2022? Yeah, you're right, the pandemic. Okay, so how many, question four, how many one word theme have kiwi burn used?

Julia: One word theme.

There's

Stevan: several, actually one word theme. So this year is

Julia: decadence metamorphosis.

Um, missing a picnic time travel.

Stevan: That's, that's not one word.

Julia: No. Was that two words?

Stevan: Two words, yeah.

not

Andy: in Kiwiburn.

Julia: Exactly. We one word.

Stevan: Okay. The answer is metamorphosis. You're right. Um, combust, combustion, unity. [00:52:00] Yeah. As an old word. Elementally. Enlightenment word as in WYRD and decadence

Andy: wide with a y.

Stevan: Wide wired.

Yeah. Wide. Not weird or word.

Julia: Yeah, yeah,

Stevan: yeah. So there were six.

Julia: Alright.

Stevan: So yeah. Yeah. Six themes.

Julia: Nice. Nice trivia.

Stevan: In what year was the theme Robots are coming used for Kiwiburn

Julia: 17, was it?

Stevan: Yeah. Very. Yeah. That you're right. You're right. Well done. Yeah. Do you remember that burn?

Julia: I wasn't there. That was the year before.

Before I joined.

Stevan: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Question. Uh, 6 20 16 was the year that Kiwi burn grew from nine, 900 attendees to almost. 1500. What was the theme that year, do you remember? 2016 to the year. Previous to decadence.

Julia: Is that the wonderer?

Andy: When was the robots?

Julia: The robots were 17.

Stevan: Yeah. 17. So yeah.

[00:53:00] So a year before robots are coming.

Julia: Oh, damn.

Stevan: Potluck and emotion.

Julia: Ah, yes.

Stevan: That's an interesting theme.

Julia: Yes. The potluck. Yes.

Stevan: Okay. Metamorphosis was the theme for Kiwi Burn in, uh, 2007. Do you remember, do you know the numbers of burners at the event

Julia: in, sorry, what year?

Stevan: 2007

Julia: Wouldn't have been very many.

Stevan: So this is when Yeah, this is, yeah, that's right.

It's very early days. So it would've been few hundred, yeah.

Julia: Five, 600. Yeah.

Andy: That was when it, when it moved. Location. And so

Stevan: two-o-seven,

Andy: yeah, I would say was probably around three hundred, maximum.

Stevan: It was less than that. It was 145.

Julia: Oh my goodness.

Stevan: So this is the early days. Yeah. Like, yeah. Back uh, 2007. Yeah. So we wasn't

Andy: first couple of years on the south, top of the south island.

Then we moved, moved north and that was metamorphosis

Julia: manakino. Yeah.

Stevan: Yeah.

Julia: I wasn't even in the [00:54:00] country at that point.

Stevan: In what year was time travel used as a theme?

Julia: Well, that was, that was the burn. Yeah. Ironically, that was canceled. So, uh, we, we had picked that theme for um, 2022 and then very fittingly, traveled it forward by year and used it for what turned out to be Mud Burn in 2023.

But it was technically the theme for two burns.

Stevan: Yeah, that's what I got down as well. Mud burn 2023.

Julia: Yeah. It was very,

Stevan: what do you remember about that? Very? What do you remember about that Burn?

Julia: Mud wood chips.

Stevan: Mm-hmm.

Julia: Um, it.

Stevan: Was it traumatic?

Julia: Um, I wouldn't say traumatic. It was just, it was a, it was a hard lesson for us to learn because I think we'd, we'd always relished, we always knew it was a matter of time until we had a rained out event.

We've been very lucky. This is a relatively stable time of year as the world is changing as well though, with those kinds of things. And we had what they call a [00:55:00] century event. There's a few of those, these days of, uh, of just a massive storm system descending on us. In the ran, caught the tail end of it, the north island and man in particular, was much more affected than we were, but it rained a lot.

And the other issue that we had is that it had rained a fair bit in the lead up, so that meant that the ground was already saturated. Um, again, there's sheep and and cattle on the, on the paddock. So there were many grooves and in particular in the upper paddock where it was actually quite hazardous to walk around from all the, been through and hard and soft and hard.

So the water table was relatively high. Our biggest concern really was to get people out safely. So we ordered many, many tons of wood chips that we put down. It wasn't actually, by the time Monday came around, it actually wasn't that [00:56:00] big a deal to get people out. We never got anybody properly stuck. We also have farm, uh, vehicles and ways to get, get, you know, old camper vans dislodged from the mud.

The biggest problem for me, personally, was probably the river, because the forest area, we keep a lot of art there, and the river is a big feature of the burn. And we had to shut the entire forest era area because of flooding risk. The river was a torrent, definitely not safe to swim in, and it meant that there was a lot of a, a huge element of kiwi burn was lost in the forest, in the river, and in the art.

I myself never actually got to see any of the art in the forest because we had to shut it off for safety reasons. So. That was probably the biggest learning for me.

Andy: Yeah. As basically if, if people had the patience to wait until the official on Monday, we had everything in place. We had the means to get people out, but the problem was that flooding up, [00:57:00] up and also in areas which Zealand, so

who had relatives, um, affected ahead. So Kiwi.

Whose lives have just been devastated. And, um, we had to get them outta there so they could go their lives out. And some of those people are still in a situation many years later still trying to get their aspects of lives sorted. It was a major upheaval for part. Yeah,

Julia: as you can imagine, wifi and access to, you know, cell phone coverage and whatnot isn't super awesome on site because we're in a bit of a valley.

So by the time information started to trickle through, there were some reasonably dramatic videos. So yeah, people started hearing what was potentially happening. Auckland is the biggest town in New Zealand by [00:58:00] extension. The majority of burners live in the Auckland area, and a lot of people simply didn't know what they would come back to as well.

So it was, it was quite traumatic from, from that sense. That's absolutely true.

Stevan: Yeah. It's, it's unusual that we get this, uh, kind of downpour kind of, uh, wet weather in the summer.

Julia: Oh, it was a cyclone. I mean, it was a full on cyclone.

Stevan: Oh, right.

Julia: And it was, yeah. And, and it was, uh, again, a century weather event and it, it rained for much longer and much harder than they forecast.

Again, I wouldn't wanna be a, a meteorologist in New Zealand. It's, uh, it's, uh, fairly changeable. But yeah, it was, it was just one of those things that was outta the ordinary might happen more often now, obviously the world over. But yeah, nobody knew quite how bad it was. And then when, when reports started to trickle through, uh, of buses driving along in the motorway and the buses were literally like, you had to put your feet on the seat in order to keep your feet drive in the bus, you know, [00:59:00] that's, that's pretty scary stuff.

Stevan: Uh, let's continue. The next question is, in what year did, kiwiburn reach over 2000 attendees?

Julia: Wow, that's fluctuated. I would've thought that was mud burn.

No.

Yeah. Was it? Yeah. Yeah. Because last,

Stevan: yeah. 2021 and 2023. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia: Yeah. Because last year we ran, there's another burn. That runs every other year called Ignition.

And we're a small island small community, so it draws on many of the same people. So last year was an ignition year, as it were. So Kiwi burn was significantly smaller as a result.

Stevan: Okay, next question. What was the 2021 Kiwi burn theme? I like this one.

Julia: 20 mythical picnic, I think.

Stevan: Correct! Yes. Well done.

Andy: Can you, can you, in what year did, can you tell that the, uh, Julia's communication department is responsible for producing the patches, the badges, the stickers, and designing them

Julia: well, that was also the case.

Well, she's doing very, very well. I was [01:00:00] on site the whole build, so yeah. I remember 21 better than most

Stevan: in what year did, can we burn, move site from Manakino to Hunterville?

Andy: We have now been on site for 11 years On the site. Yeah. 11 years ago. 2014,

Stevan: correct. 2014. Well done. Um, how many burns did Manakino hosted?

Andy: Uh, I think they were third one onwards.

Julia: And it's our 21st anniversary this year.

Stevan: So you're doing some good math there. Mm-hmm. You're doing some good math calculations there.

Julia: This is the accountant.

Andy: Right. So we went from 2006, three to 2000, I believe

Stevan: That's right. Yeah. 2007 to 2013. Correct. Yeah. So seven altogether. The of seven. And how about Hunterville?

How many have hunterville hosted?

Julia: 11.

Andy: This is, this is our 11th year and our ninth event.

Stevan: Correct. Two,

nine. Yeah. Plus, so 10 this year. Yeah. [01:01:00] What was the theme for Kiwi burn in 2020?

Julia: 2020 was. Electric Avenue was

Stevan: decade.

Julia: Decade, yes. Electric, yeah. Was a decade. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yes.

Stevan: And bonus points, how many people do you reckon you had that that year?

Do you remember? About

Julia: 1800, something like that.

Andy: About 1850?

Stevan: Yeah. Just under 2000. From what? From what I've got here, the Wiki Burn site is the, oh, 19, 19 95. So you never trust, that's a good year too.

Andy: You never trust that because it comes from communications or propaganda demand.

Julia: That's right.

Stevan: Yeah. And it doesn't get updated.

But that's, yeah. That's the only source of, uh, information we have, um, at the moment. Yeah.

Andy: That's because it's all secret. So we can't reveal that it was actually 3000 people, but you know, we don't tell people. Yeah,

Stevan: right. Okay. That's a lot. Yeah. So Disaster holiday was a theme used Kiwi Burn in what year?

Julia: I do not know.

Stevan: Disaster holiday.

Andy: That would've been an, this would've been.[01:02:00]

Say about 2009.

Stevan: Yeah, 2012. Bit. A bit more later than that. Yeah. Okay. 20 20 11 featured the, the theme. Title Twisted what? Twisted

Andy: Frequency.

Julia: No. Twisted Frequency is a whole nother, I don't remember. I ha I can sort of see it. Um, twisted, don't Remember

Stevan: Twisted Reality.

Julia: Oh, actually that's not what I was thinking at all.

So I would've been, yeah.

Stevan: Okay. Final one. What was the theme for Kiwi Burn in 2014? This is when you guys moved. Sites 2014, you've forgotten already.

Julia: Can't speak for sure.

Stevan: Forgotten.

Andy: It was before my time.

Julia: Well, it was well before my time. Yeah. Um, I don't,

Stevan: well, there is, there is the word forgotten in it.

Forgotten dreams.

Julia: Ah. Course. Yes. Well, you're asking us to remember 21 years of themes, but yes, there we're.

Stevan: Yeah. Well, that's also for the listeners out there as well. Absolutely. Of course. For all time burners. [01:03:00] Yeah. Who's actually been to it. And so let's, let's get a, a, a, a quick, uh, background of and history of, of Kiwi Burn.

If you guys can fill, fill us in, in terms of how it, uh. Yeah, it became about,

Julia: well, um, we have a, we have a sort of a, a godfather of Kiwi burn, um, uh, yo Yoman is his name, and he visited, um, burning Man and thought, uh, and I'm, I'm not entirely sure of the year. Yeah.

Andy: So he oh three or something. He was actually a geologist, um, working with the University of New Zealand and go on sabbaticals to Nevada.

And one year he happened to be out in the desert and heard about this thing called burning. What the hell that, um, went to it, fell in love with it, went back to it, and then decided he wanted to bring it to New Zealand. So he went presentation to board and said, I wanna take this new, and said, that's wonderful.

You're gonna be the first burn outside of, outside of the US continent. Um, so that was in 2004.

Stevan: So the first international burn [01:04:00] community,

Andy: correct. That's outside of the us Yep. Um, we had some close competition, but because we happened in January, um, we beat the others out by a few weeks. But yeah, yo brought it to New Zealand.

So it started in the, and it actually started as a sub part of another event, so they were running parallel to share resources. Um, and then it just got expanded a little bit and then after two years it moved up to the north island because it was just too much for the population to go down to that area.

And so that's, that's how it all started.

Julia: Is he here this year? Hmm. Is Heman here?

Andy: He's normally here most years. Yeah. We keep dragging him. Yeah. Cool. Dragging him back to see what he's, what he's created.

Julia: Yeah. It's all grown up now.

Stevan: Yeah, of course. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Andy: We're coming of age. Yeah. 21.

Stevan: Now you talked about the organizations earlier and what you, what you do, uh, how, how important is having this, uh, volunteer based kind of, uh, operations?

And also [01:05:00] the question is, how does a festival, or how does an event that runs entirely by volunteers continue to operate that way? How, how do you guys actually successfully, uh, manage

Julia: tick kicking and screaming? Um, so yeah, we've got our, we've got our executive committee that has a number of facilitators, um, on them, and then, you know, reasonably traditional structure underneath that.

Um, how do we do it? Well, again, we, we try for more facilitators, we generally ask that they commit for two years, and then if they are thinking of stepping down, obviously, I mean, you know, life happens, but that's what we, that's what we try. And then if somebody is thinking of stepping down that they bring it 2IC on.

At a reasonably early stage, uh, and get them inducted. So we've had that with services. For example, we've had our awesome Chloe, who's been looking after services for a few years now, and she knew that she was gonna step down after this burn. So for the last several months, actually her two IC has been joining EXCOM meetings.

[01:06:00] Um, I think it's gonna be the smoothest handover ever, ever, so that we get better at succession planning. That's not something that we've been historically super awesome at, partly because of the volunteer elements. So somebody leaves, again, there's a life event that happens, um, and then they kind of vacate their post and the rest of us are like, right.

So figure this out. But that's one of the things that we're actively trying to address, is to try to keep people in roles as long as possible. I do feel the need to shout out to my own team at this point. The comms team. I've had people that have been on the comms team for years, years and years. Comms runs itself now, which allows me to be a true facilitator and just remove obstacles.

Be more involved with governance versus the day-to-day running of my team. They're a well-oiled machine, so I'm very, very proud of them. And that's kind of, and there's other teams that are aspiring to that, but that's probably longevity and roles and empowering people to make decisions. [01:07:00] And finding the right people and, and succession planning.

Stevan: Yeah. You have some really talented writers, web gurus, photographers, social media

Julia: Absolutely.

Stevan: And c community liaisons. So yeah. Yeah.

Julia: Our, our shit posting is on point.

Stevan: And also red on your, on your profile, something about shark attack or something shark attached. Tell me what's this about?

Julia: Yeah, well, I couldn't tell you too much about it, but yes.

For some years, um, uh, a friend and I ran the same friend that's introduced me to Kiwi Burn. We came across a drink in a bar in New Orleans called the Shark Attack. And, uh, I can't tell you too much about it because it has a significant surprise element. Um, but we would, we took the shark attacks on a roaming, uh, event throughout, throughout Kiwi Burn, and it involves, it's the making of a cocktail, uh, involving the, uh, the, the run shark, which is very much fictional and, um, and yeah, so it's, it's just good fun.

It's a bit of performance art. That results in a yummy [01:08:00] cocktail.

Stevan: Yeah. Cool. And Andy, you, you also on, on, on the, on the profile page, you also, uh, submitted a long term vi viability plan as well.

Andy: Yep. Yeah,

Stevan: tell us about that.

Andy: When I came on board, the one thing I found that was lacking was that we were working from year to year and people didn't know whether they could start a project, whether it be continued the next year and things like that.

And also because obviously the population did wanna grow, we just couldn't do it without some, some planning plan. So we had to come in with some sort of, where does our population, what services and support to make happen.

What money do we need to make happen and what money we have got? What we gonna ring fence for? Various things. And one of the big things was saying that we're ring some as a contingency so we a bad weather event or so that doesn't us under, so we subscribe to the fact we're not for profit, we don't want to make a surplus.[01:09:00]

We had by default made some small.

Um, infrastructure build major asset purchases in terms of equipment and things like that. And the back of the minds of everybody was, would we ever buy our own property that may have gone outta the window over the last, you know, 10 or 12 years with the way property prices gone. And also the fact that we've got a very good site here, but we needed to have that long term planning so people knew that if I was an infrastructure facilitator and wanted to start a project that next year it wasn't gonna be chopped off because somebody didn't lie the idea anymore.

And that those funds were committed for 1, 2, 3 years, whatever. Still haven't got, still haven't gotta a 10 year plan yet.

Stevan: That's the grand vision.

Andy: Yeah.

Stevan: So what are some of the things that you guys love about your roles in helping out with the community?

Andy: Biggest thrill if that I get, is watching people grow.

So them helping them get [01:10:00] into a position even though they think can't do it. Sometimes giving the confidence and, and people often come to me and say, oh, I want your opinion on and opinion what wrong opinion. Um, and one thing I always say is, is somebody gonna get killed or badly injured? If not, why don't you just try it and see what happens?

And if it doesn't work, it didn't work, try something else. The world will keep spinning, burning, uh, kiwi burn will still happen. Um, and just let them develop their own confidence and their own decisions and their own abilities, and they've got the support of everybody. Um, and we when instill that not just in excom, but in all team, full support, hate above facilitating.

Um, but people aren't often aware of. But that's, that's the thing I love most about it. Um, apart from the art, of course. Mm-hmm.

Stevan: Yeah. I can hear a bit of the music. I'm just, uh, yeah. It's enjoying the music.

Julia: Yeah. For me it's [01:11:00] similar. That's cool. Um, I'm nu again, I'm enormously proud of, of my own team, um, watching the, the people go myself as well.

I have learned. So much being part of this community, things that I would never get a chance to be exposed to in my, in my real life as it were. Um, it's the community that, that I just, um, really connect with because there's some amazing people here. You obviously, the creativity, the yarns at camp is probably one of my favorite parts of every burn, is just sitting around shooting the breeze with like-minded people.

One of the qualities that I look for in people that I surround myself, the number one quality I look for is authenticity. And that's kind of built into the burner community by and large. You know, it's very hard to find inauthentic people around here. And when I walk across the paddock and I see people truly being themselves, and again, for some people.

These five days is the only time where they can truly, truly be whoever it is that they, that they want to be. It fills me [01:12:00] with enormous warmth to know that I had a tiny part in, in helping making that happen and driving it forward. So that's, that's the driving force for me is the community, the people in it.

Stevan: Yeah. You also look after the, the social media aspect of uh,

Julia: yeah.

Stevan: Things.

Julia: Yep. That's a full-time job.

Stevan: Yeah. So it, I mean it's, the landscape of, of social media is changing. So how do you see, in terms of how we use this technology or how do you see, what are some of the challenges ahead for, for our community and social media?

Julia: I think the same challenges that the rest of society faces, to be honest. So, um, I had never been on Facebook until I got involved with Kiwi Burn and now I run the Facebook side, so I had to get on it. I'm actually on Facebook under a pseudonym because. I hate it so much and I hardly ever post anything, but I have to be on there to be at the administrator.

And when I first got on, I almost chucked the whole thing in a couple of days in because I was [01:13:00] dismayed with what people would say online that they wouldn't ever say to somebody's face. That's always my measure. Right. If you wouldn't say it to the person. Don't bloody say it at all. And there was a bit of, uh, venom.

It was actually not the Kiwiburn side. It was, it was, uh, kiwiburn adjacent that that happened. But I also have to say that again, social media is one of the areas where the community really comes into its own. Um, I and my team moderate the, the Kiwi Burn Facebook page and group sites, and the group has got like 13,000 people in it now.

So it's got, it's got a fair reach. Uh, both of them are, have, you know, thousands of people. So, you know, we've got group rules, of course, and we moderate those. We know, we know our people. We know when we, when a certain post pops up, we're a little bit more alert than others. By and large, the community really manages these things quite well and kind of puts people in their place gently or not, depending on the issue in terms of how it's [01:14:00] changing.

There's obviously a lot of chatter about whether Facebook is is an appropriate platform and every year, again, I'm not a fan myself at all, but at the same time, we also have a duty to try to reach the most people with pertinent information and give them that platform. So unfortunately for the foreseeable future, I don't see it changing off of Facebook.

Again, we have a newsletter as well that we send out, and everything goes in the newsletter first. Before it then is posted on online, unless it's something very urgent. But it is, it's interesting how it's changing how people are interacting on Facebook versus how they're interacting on in real life, as it were.

I haven't necessarily seen it get much worse. Uh, I think it's Facebook or the social media sites themselves that are changing versus the people on them. So I actually think the change is coming is driven by the platforms versus the people on the platforms top. Yeah, exactly.

Stevan: Yeah. From the top down. Yeah,

Julia: that's exactly [01:15:00] right.

So we're very aware of that. Uh, photography is another one of my departments and, and generally in the aftermath of the event, photography is the biggest subject. People continuously post pictures. They shouldn't, I have to admit that kiwi burners are particularly camera shy. Um, so I have a team of onsite photographers that are briefed repeatedly on consent.

We've also run a yellow, uh, wristband, uh, initiative. Um, I don't actually wear one myself. I don't think I have one to show you because I'm one of the camera shy ones. But, uh, we give out, um, yellow, um, stretchy, uh, wristbands at, at greeners that are an indication of consent to be photographed by our official photographers.

So again, lots of changes in that element, like post COVID. Uh, the burn in 21 in particular was huge from a photography standpoint because I think people had sort of retreated back into their [01:16:00] bubble as part of COVID. We were pretty much the only burn that happened in 2021, and I think people had a, had a strong need.

Their share life more so than, than they otherwise would. So we just saw an explosion of, of photography and, and, and photo related issues that were still managing the fallout because that's kind of people, people have an increased need to document their lives and to share that widely. So that continues to be my biggest challenge actually is, is to keep the photography under wraps as much as we can, uh, in terms of the people and, you know, anybody being identifiable and whatnot.

So that, that continues to be the biggest challenge and the change that COVID has brought.

Stevan: Yeah, I do like the, the imple implementation of the wristband. Yeah. It's, it's all about us. Education and communication, I think comes down to that.

Julia: Oh, well, yeah, absolutely. So we do our best to make sure the community [01:17:00] is briefed.

Uh, so we have many, many posts going out. Again, there's a weekly newsletter or, you know, certainly it's been weekly for the last few months that we stuff full with information. There's a survival guide online, and again, there's the community itself, which polices very well, uh, on polices itself very well online.

Every now and then we have to step in and do moderation. But yeah, that's primary. The, the purpose of the propaganda department is to educate, is to, is to provide a platform for information and information sharing.

Stevan: Yeah. Cool. Let's talk about the burner, the nz, the New Zealand burner Community and Culture.

Uh, for the people that's not familiar, what, how, how would you describe Kiwi burners? How are they different to other regionals and other burns?

Julia: I haven't been to other burns, so I can't talk.

Andy: Yeah, I think it's just the fact that they're kiwis. Um, we do, we do tend to, as we said before, we're remote, so we tend to be able to fix things ourselves, come up with new ideas, um, but we're [01:18:00] also very willing to help.

Um, so I noticed that when I went overseas, I wouldn't, I wouldn't think twice about saying to somebody, do you need a hand with that? Can I help you? Or whatever. I'm not gonna step in and take it over from you. I'm just saying, you look like you put with a hand and we just pitch in and have some fun. Also, we don't take things too seriously most of the time.

But yeah, that's about the only thing I can think of. I mean, the, the burner ethos is pretty much consistent from country to country, which is why we all come together. Why we can go to large events like Burning Man with 80,000 people. There wouldn't be many other cultural activities where you can throw 80,000 people together and, and not have some serious incidents happening somewhere.

And all the rest of it. And where we do have differences of opinion, um, we talk them through, yeah, we can work, we can in terms of we can work together with differences. Mm mm

Stevan: In, in terms of the landscape, what's the concentration of burn? Are they mainly in Auckland, Wellington, and what's the situation there?

Julia: Well, auckland is the, [01:19:00] by a fair distance, the largest city in New Zealand. So that is where, uh, most of our burners come from. It's about 60 40. So the Auckland sort of greater, um, metropolitan area, shall we call it. Many, there's more from the north island than the south island, simply because it's harder to get here.

And the South island is much more sparsely populated than we have many people from Wellington. Of course, we're closer to Wellington. I think Andy said earlier, it's about five and a half hours from Auckland. It's about two and a half or so from Wellington. But Wellington is a much smaller city, so you know there's fewer people coming from there.

And then obviously. Various rural, um, situations as well. We've got a couple of theme camps that are specifically from the south island and Christchurch based. Um, so people come from anywhere, but by virtue of being the largest two cities, the majority of people are from either Auckland or, well,

Andy: we we're developing, we have other happening around New Zealand Yeah.[01:20:00]

Adjacent ones. Um, so there's quite a population of burn in the northern part of the north island up in Rey around North. Um, we've also got a lot on the, um, east coast, around island, places like that. Wellington, though it's very active, a very social group of burners who get together regularly. And Christchurch has got a very heavy concentration of burners too.

They have various premises that they meet up and various events they run together. And then we've also got quite a few concentrations in smaller areas, um, that are very active. So we have some like places like that in South Island when. We actively assisted other areas to start small regionals. Not official burning man regional ones, but New Zealand regional ones.

Um, so we have those up around the country as well. Yeah, so

API hippie

South. [01:21:00] Know, community of burners in there. Basically you can tour New Zealand and go from burner to burner.

Julia: Yes, you can. And people do.

Stevan: Yeah. I I love the, the New Zealand tourism ads. It actually makes me, uh, wanna go there straight away.

Julia: Yep.

Stevan: It's, uh,

Andy: we've, we've already sent you an application for 2025, so you can choose what you wanna volunteer for.

Julia: Yeah. And it really is cool that beautiful. And again, I think because we're so far away, uh, in the, the wanting to help, wanting to provide a soft landing wherever we can, is a, is very much a kiwi ethos and by definition, or by extension, rather, a kiwi burner ethos as well.

Stevan: Okay. Let's talk about the effigy and the temple for this year.

Julia: Okay.

Stevan: Can you describe what, what it is or what it looks like? Bit of spoiler.

Julia: Well, I mean, if you're on site now, you would've, you would've seen it. Um, so yeah, so the effigy is called Oh, flora Fauna. Well, [01:22:00] human and fungi, there's one word that I'm missing. I'm very sorry. Um, and it's, uh, it's sort of celebrating New Zealand wildlife and society and humans interacting with that.

Um, and then our, our overlords, the mushrooms, you know, who largest organisms on the planet and, and undefinable in terms of whether they're actually plants or animals. And, uh, so

Stevan: aliens.

Julia: Yeah. Yeah. So it's a large structure. It was done largely with bamboo lashings. So he's created the artist, Nico has created a number of faces, both human faces and animal faces.

So there's a mouse, there's a rooster, there's a bunny rabbit, and he's done those outta uh, stripped bamboo and lashed them together. So they're really quite, definitely very clearly identifiable. Um, unlike almost like a totem. Uh, so we've got the humans at the top and then the animals, and then the mushrooms and, and sort of tree of of life almost, uh, elements.

[01:23:00] So it's about 12.

Andy: Normally they grow.

Julia: Oh, they definitely grow. Yeah. It always comes out bigger.

Andy: Apply,

Julia: make. I'll let you talk about the temple.

Andy: Yeah. So the temple this year is a, a rather unique one. So we have, over the years we've had a, a group of people who have been both our medical service and also our fire service, and they have operated since the Manakino days, think it's either 15 years or 16 years possibly that they've been involved with this.

So every year they've come along and they've done their thing, but they've also become part of the community. And we've always had whispers that Paul, who's the, uh, part of the, the team of Paul & Kirsty, Paul always had these ideas, finally got into putting a design forward and it's basically paying homage to all the emergency services workers.

So Paul and his wife Kirsty are heavily [01:24:00] involved in the fire service and also saint Johns ambulance, and it's based on the St. Johns International symbol. Um, so it's got the, so cross, it's got the snake, the name of the snake and the staff and things like that. So basically it's in the shape of the staff, the shape of the staff.

And this theme is basically the heart rhythms. So each of those arms has a different heart rhythm that explains what it's, how you get it, what impact it can have on you, um, goes from birth to death. And um, yeah, and the interesting thing with it was the way he designed it, it's what we're calling our first IKEA flat pack temple.

It's now set the bar very high for the first to be completed, the easiest to be completed, probably the lowest comparative budget to be completed. Um, basically Paul and his team built an offsite and flat panels sector, uh, warehouse, and then basically trucked on site and bolt it together in a space of probably three to four days.

Julia: They local though to be, that helps

Andy: [01:25:00] and.

Um, where we bring the local, uh, people in. And so Paul actually brought it on site, had it built, um, so they could actually view what a temple was about. Nico had his under construction, so they saw one large structure being structured and one constructed. So yeah, that's temple this year, but don't tell anybody yet.

Julia: Yeah.

Andy: Burn tomorrow. One burns tomorrow, one the day after.

Julia: Yeah. I, I have to say that, um, the temple is like, it, it may, it may be flat pack as it were. I personally find it, and obviously these things are hugely individual, right? I found the, the temple hugely evocative. Um, so he's explained the different, so it's like, there's various themes, fear, lost, love, you know, life, death, and the different heart rhythms that come with that.

And it's, and yeah, it's, it's beautifully, beautifully done.

Stevan: That [01:26:00] sounds amazing.

Andy: There's a very, very special feature that's been added in the last few days, so we can't tell you about that until everybody else has experienced it.

Stevan: Yeah.

Andy: But needless to say, I'll hint at Zeppelin.

Stevan: Awesome. Well thanks. Thanks very much Andy and Julia for coming together, like this and having a chat about Kiwi Burn.

Appreciate you guys.

Julia: It's been a pleasure.

Andy: Thank you for having us.

Stevan: Any, anything else you wanna promote?

Um, Kiwiburn?

Julia: No, we don't wanna promote Kiwi Burn. We, we don't need to.

Stevan: Anything else you wanna say?

Andy: Just a few.

We expect to see you here.

Stevan: Yes. Yes, definitely. And, and for you guys as well, welcome to, to one of our burns as well. I, I think, uh, with this initiative of, uh, knowledge exchange as well as, you know, like, as well as the connection, I think it's, uh, very important for our community.

Julia: Hundred percent.

Andy: And I think the whole bonza are, bonza are, uh, arrangement that we [01:27:00] have between Australia and New Zealand.

We're exchanging people all the time. Yeah. You know, everybody's gonna, everybody else's burn and sharing the knowledge. And I think we're, we're showing the way for the rest of the world as far as how regional burns can work together.

Julia: Absolutely.

Stevan: Yeah. And you guys being the first burn probably off the calendar as well in, in the new year.

So Yeah, it's, it's great having, uh, having that to go.

Andy: Kiwis always lead the world first to see the light and first to see the light every morning.

Stevan: Yes. Yes. Well have a, have an awesome burn.

Julia: Thank you. Uh,

Stevan: thanks. Yeah. Thanks for coming by.

Julia: Thank Oh, thank you for having us.

Transcripts transcribed by Descript AI