[Will & Kate] (0:05 - 0:24)

Burners of New Zealand, Australia and Asia. Radically making magic on the paddock round the fire. B-O-N-Z-A-A-R.

Bonzaar Podcast.

[Stevan] (0:30 - 1:24)

A Bonzaar, welcome to everyone out there tuning in. I'm Stevan Lay or Silent Disco on Paddock and you're listening to the Burners of New Zealand, Australia and Asian regional podcast, a conversation show about burner culture in our localised regions. For this episode, we'll be focusing on two outstanding presentations from the Bonza Summit this year.

It was interesting to see how in sync some of these presentations and topics were and in parallel of each other, like a dialogue, like a dance, a dance of tango. And it was also in conversation with accidental leadership by ShazCat. So that was kind of interesting too.

So for this panel, special discussions on closed doors and sharp tongues and do all zebras feel safe, we have invited Felipe and Deirdre on to bounce around some ideas and thoughts and talk about their speaking engagement at the 2026 Bonza Summit. So welcome Daydream and Felipe.

[Deirdre] (1:24 - 1:25)

Thank you.

[Felipe] (1:25 - 1:26)

Thank you.

[Stevan] (1:26 - 1:38)

I have to say that those are some delicious titles there. Closed doors and sharp tongues.

I was just going to say that, yeah, those are two delicious topics, titles there.

[Felipe] (1:40 - 1:52)

It's yeah, definitely things that I carry close to my heart. It's how do we tackle this kind of stuff and then yeah, how to bring that into a presentation and make it interesting.

[Stevan] (1:52 - 1:56)

So Deirdre, is it true that zebras work together to fend off predators?

[Deirdre] (1:56 - 2:19)

Yeah, I think so. And I think the idea of the stripes, you know, it's good design. It just makes it a bit hard to see them.

So I don't know if we're all huddled together hiding from predators. Is that the default world? I'm not sure.

I was also thinking about we're not sparkle, we're not yeah, sparkle ponies, but maybe I'm getting too deep on this.

[Stevan] (2:20 - 2:27)

But that's what the zebras do, right? They mesmerise their predators so they can escape.

[Deirdre] (2:27 - 2:35)

Yeah, I think I view it a bit like you're not meant to wear stripes when you're on camera because it's hard to see you.

[Stevan] (2:37 - 2:43)

And Felipe, have you been keeping track on the number of renegades you've been to? You hate that question. How many burns have you been to?

[Felipe] (2:46 - 2:48)

Yeah, enough. Enough to feel tired.

[Stevan] (2:51 - 3:04)

So they're consecutive renegades. Yeah. We can talk about that later.

Yeah. Let's do some intros, first of all. Let's get some intros and talk about some of the roles and contributions you've made to the Burner community.

[Deirdre] (3:04 - 3:58)

Yeah. It's interesting when you ask that because I kind of think, nothing. I don't really do anything.

I just show up. But then I guess if you say that to someone else, as I did, they said back to me, oh, no, wait, you did this, this and this. So yeah, you kind of would never think, oh, I do enough or I do lots.

Do you know what I mean? But yeah, I guess what so I have been part of Underland since the first year. I've been part of SPAM.

So that's site planning and maintenance for the last few years. Best crew, obviously, on Paddock. It's no competition.

I guess before that I was doing rangering. This year I'm part of the effigy build crew and I'm also Melburner's vice president. So yeah, a little bit busy at the moment.

Yeah. And a few other things for common arts in the diversity and inclusion space. Yeah.

[Stevan] (3:58 - 3:59)

Cool.

[Felipe] (3:59 - 5:44)

Yeah. Interesting question.

I mean, well, it's about the leadership and how much you do. Right. I never consider myself a leader.

It's kind of accidental leader type thing. But basically, yeah, I think I fell in the burner world in 2019. My crew used to go to Rainbow Serpent and we were really big into Rainbow.

And that was one famous year that we just decided we knew about the burns and we were sitting on our camp at Rainbow and we were like, oh, we really should burn and step our game up and go to a burn. I was like, well, if we're going to burn, we're going to bring a theme camp. So on our first burn, which was Burning Seed 2019, we brought a team camp with 40 burgeons, me included.

And I was one of the co-founders, leads of that team camp. So basically, I'm good at gathering the cats, I guess, and making sure that the cats are all there. But yeah.

And then I've been here and then I drink too much Kool-Aid, I suppose. And I've been to the burner world since then. Yeah.

Then I participate by doing art and I do some fire stuff. I was one of the SBE directors for the burn that didn't happen. And then we became embers.

And then that was the reorganization. And then it became just SBA. And then I left the director role.

But I'm still around and I'm still doing stuff. But I'm mostly at the team camp and then volunteering space, I suppose.

[Stevan] (5:45 - 5:49)

How did you find out about the burner culture in the first place?

[Felipe] (5:49 - 6:26)

Yeah, I think by going to festivals for me, we were like festival people. And then we kept hearing about the burns. But burns are different.

Burns are different. I'm like, what is it? What is it that is different?

And then when I understood it, and then I obviously would dig it on the internet and you read this stuff about Burning Man, I was like, oh, okay, this is interesting. And then that's what got us into Burning Seed and literally changed our lives, I guess. That's literally it.

We hear that from everybody, but it literally changed our lives, doesn't it?

[Stevan] (6:26 - 6:34)

Well, 2019 would have been the year that Burning Seed was peak. It literally was a city.

[Felipe] (6:34 - 6:57)

Yeah, my first burn was the last burn. That's how I play with that. I was like, oh, my first burn was the last burn.

It was the last big, big one that we had in New South Wales. And it was still, you know, joined New South Wales, Victoria. And it was epic.

That Burning Seed was ridiculous. So yeah.

[Stevan] (6:57 - 7:04)

Do you think it's a good introduction for new burners? That kind of scale, that massive gathering of that?

[Felipe] (7:04 - 7:34)

I think so. I think so. If you have a city that size, and the things are in place, you can learn the culture pretty quick. Like, I mean, we went with a theme camp. And there was only two people in our theme camp that had burned before, which is pretty uncommon, I suppose, for the burner world.

But yeah, definitely. I don't see why not. I think the city size doesn't quite matter.

It's how you get into it.

[Deirdre] (7:35 - 10:46)

Sorry, I went the other way around. I did sort of, probably, I don't know, the wrong way, where a friend offered me a ticket to Burning Man about four weeks out of when it was happening, because a friend of hers couldn't go. So she got these two tickets from her neighbour.

And she said, do you want to come? I think that was 2016, maybe. So yeah, and she was living in Jordan, and I was in Melbourne.

And then we just met in San Francisco. And I bought a tent, flew over with my tent, and we joined this friend's theme camp. This theme camp had been going for quite some time, and this friend couldn't go.

So she sponsored us in, and you're have a sponsor who brings the newbie along, and then they show you around all week. And there's a lot of work that you've got to do, your shifts and everything, as part of the camp. So they took a massive risk having us come along without a sponsor.

So it's just me and my friend landing in this group of maybe 50 or so people who are from San Francisco and LA. And we just kind of drove in in our hire car and went, hey, hi, we're here. And it was the middle of the night, and you're trying to put up your tent in the middle of a dust storm.

And yeah, that was a bit of a trial by fire, appropriately. But yeah, a lot of people spent the week saying to me, oh, have you been to Rainbow Serpent? That's like Australia's Burning Man.

Have you been to Rainbow Serpent? And I actually said, oh, Rainbow Serpent? Haven't heard of it.

I'll look it up when I get home. Because I hadn't really been to festivals or anything before. So yeah, Burning Man was kind of the first big thing I went to and then came back and I went, oh, I should go to this Rainbow Serpent thing.

And I went there and went to the theme camps and kind of thought, oh yeah, cool, people are doing that kind of thing. And then I went back to Burning Man, I think 2018 or so. And then obviously 2020 wasn't possible.

So you know, kind of fell off there. But yeah, then I started looking for how to get into that community and that way of existing in Australia. And actually, when I came back in 2016, I emailed the regional contact in Australia and it was Justin.

And I kind of said, hey, I've just had this life changing transformative experience and met all these amazing people. And he quite politely and nicely wrote back going, that's amazing. You know, have you thought of Rainbow Serpent?

And there's all these things you can do here. And it's funny because, yeah, we still chat today about that. And I sort of still when I see him say, you know, thank you for replying to my email and actually meeting my enthusiasm and excitement with an equal amount of it.

And still, you know, we kind of have a chat now and then about the way, I don't know, the world is and the way we're living our lives and, you know, the way we try to live the, you know, the principles and all of that kind of thing. So, yeah, it's funny, isn't it? How we all kind of end up here through a different path.

But I think we're all kind of here for much the same reasons. Yeah.

[Stevan] (10:47 - 10:54)

Can we talk about the Bonza Summit this year? What was your experience like and like some of the takeaways and learnings you guys had?

[Felipe] (10:54 - 10:55)

Do you want to go first Dee?

[Deirdre] (10:55 - 12:38)

I can. Oh, so many. I've got so many pages of notes in my bullet journal and I have kept meaning to go back and go through them all and kind of figure out what is the thing I can take away.

If nothing else, I think it's that thing of, you know, it's leaders from all around Australia, New Zealand and Asia coming together and sharing their experiences and just kind of knowing that, oh, there's these little pockets of, you know, creative weirdos all over the place doing similar sort of things and asking themselves the same questions, you know, because often it was reassuring to know that, you know, if you don't kind of go, what am I doing here?

How do I get out of this? I'm never going again. Then, you know, you haven't really been through the loop at least one time.

And, you know, because we put so much, like we put all of our heart and soul into it. We, you know, we take time off work. It's a lot of, you know, emotional, physical, monetary investment doing this and we do it sort of for the love of it.

And I guess that was sort of one of the things I was asking Justin about when I sent that original email. It's sort of, this is, yeah, this is an event. This is like a party or whatever it is, however you view it, that people go to once a year.

How can this be part of my life or how can this be the way that I live my life? Or, you know, that kind of more holistic way of looking at it. So I think, yeah, seeing all the people in that room and hearing all of people's kind of struggles and the way they overcame them and their creativity and passion in the room, that's really like, you can kind of walk away from that feeling like excited and energized again and making some connections.

So, yeah, a lot.

[Felipe] (12:39 - 15:45)

Yeah. Yeah. Look, I'm, yeah, it's, there won't be a recording of our video, but I'm here nodding to you all the time.

So it's, yeah, for me, it's an interesting one because I think I had, well, I was on a low when I came to Bonza. So because of the cancelling of last year's Burn, I was really in a personal struggle with being in the community. I kind of wanted to continue showing up and helping, but I also did, but I was feeling hurt from having to cancel the event.

And it was, yeah, it was just a shit show to be in that position last year when we had to cancel. And it took a long time to be able to process it. But I think that just to get an invite to come to Bonza, it's a huge privilege because there is one, we get to meet all these epic, amazing people.

Like we are, we are surrounded by epic people when we are at the events in the Burns, but like to have that opportunity to do this and then have this kind of like, you know, this format of putting together ideas and presenting and having this, the format itself is super conducive for this really interesting, deep dives that we are doing in the culture, in the leadership, in the operations, into how we are doing things.

So, but for me, yeah, there was no question. Like if I had the invite, I would go for sure. And then Leanna was like, do you want to make a presentation?

And I had this presentation that I put together for about a year. I was tinkering with it because like I wanted to have this presentation actually for something that I was planning with Shiny when we were directors of SBE, which was trying to get started with, you know, with a similar format for the leadership of the Burn itself. And then bringing topics where we could, you know, introduce a topic and then have a discussion with the leadership.

And that never happened. Things got in the way, but then the presentation never, the presentation was there, stored on my, on my, yeah, notes. So yeah, it's a, it's a huge privilege to be able to come to that group.

And for me, Burns was massively healing point as well. It's just inspiring. Like it's just so inspiring.

You get there and you're like, oh yeah, that's why, that's why we do it. That's, that's why I have like, you know, an entire theme camp under my house. And, and, and, and, and that's why like I, yeah, get to hear my husband getting annoyed at me because every, every one of our holidays is a Burn and we needed a real holiday, but, but I got so much out of it.

Right. Like that's it.

[Stevan] (15:46 - 15:55)

Did you feel like an A-lister getting invited? You see, you know, you're privileged to be there, but now you're like, you're, you're, you're in the inner sanctum of the Burn leadership.

[Felipe] (15:56 - 16:37)

No, like, I mean, it really is a privilege. I don't think, I don't feel like an A-lister at all. It's a actively doing the leadership work as, as you know, you know what I mean?

Like I'm, I don't have a, an IC position or a 2IC. I'm just really opinionated and I keep going back to it and I keep trying to help the people that are doing it. And, and I keep giving opinions to the directors of the Board because they're my friends.

And, and, and I keep talking to the ICs throughout the year. So it's, it's, I guess, leadership by just being involved really.

[Stevan] (16:38 - 16:54)

Well, how did you choose your, so both of you presented, you know, with some great like research and talking points and, you know, slides and, and, and your delivery as well. But so why did you choose your topic to present about?

[Deirdre] (16:55 - 20:18)

I think that we always sort of teach what we needed to learn ourselves. That's sort of the nature of, of teaching and then presenting in this kind of way. That's my view anyway.

We sort of, we want to, we always want to share what we had to learn and often the hard way. And that is, I mean, for me particularly, and I'm guessing for Felipe, if it's something that you have really had to, that you've struggled with and you've really had to learn yourself and then you've sort of figured something out and then you want to help other people so that they never have to experience the shit that you went through. That's why we present these kinds of things.

And so, yeah, for me, I guess I, I've also studied, I've got a master's in positive psychology and that's, you know, another thing that I'm, I'm really passionate about positive psychology. So it's the, it's the science of wellbeing. So there's a lot of actual science around this stuff.

And I wanted to learn, you know, kind of get to the bottom of why things work and, you know, what things don't work and why. And psychosocial safety is a huge sort of topic. So yeah, I guess for me thinking about, you know, workplaces.

So, you know, we had a bit of a chat before about, you know, do you feel safe in a workplace? And it's in a sort of a psychological sense because, you know, these days, hopefully people don't tend to get physically injured as much as they used to, but people sure do get injured emotionally and mentally. And, you know, we've all seen or experienced that in social settings as well.

So in, you know, I mean, relationships, friend groups, families, all of that kind of thing. And then, you know, this is a, when you talk about a burn, it's a really interesting melting pot of all of the above. It's, it's like, it's like a workplace because you're getting a lot of work done, but it's harder in some ways because when people are volunteering, so when there's no, oh, you know, you're getting paid for this, so you do the work and you clock off.

If, you know, the irony is if you're volunteering, people don't have an off switch, you know, you're doing it for the passion. So people sort of work harder and then people are more passionate and then people kind of get, you know, get sort of too involved. And then there's friendships and relationships and all sorts of things involved.

So it's actually, I guess, for me, yeah, a special interest of making sure that we can, we can all work to make all spaces safer and that people know what it takes to do that and understand, you know, who's responsible and why we do it and how and all of that. And then I guess, yeah, the fact that it's so difficult in, you know, going out into the middle of either a desert or a paddock and you're building a whole city and society and, you know, people are living there 24 seven. It's like if you took your roommates and your family and all your friends, your partner, you know, your workplace and then you've got to eat, you've got to, you know, people have got to find water and, you know, it's kind of everything altogether.

It's, yeah, that, I guess that's a really long answer, but I just think it's so important. And yeah, hopefully I was able to convey a little bit of that.

[Felipe] (20:20 - 21:28)

Yeah, no, I think you're so right, Dee. And for me, yeah, it's just like Dee was saying, I, well, one, I'm ADHD. So like, that's a topic that interests me personally.

And I'm also a researcher. I'm not a psychologist, not a social science type person. I'm actually a biologist, but I, which helped me how to make the research for that presentation.

So I was talking about SNARK and gatekeeping and how those things can affect community, right? And I guess the why was, came from just before this, this version of the board of Burning Seed at the moment of SBA, I mean, that I was helping with the survey that we're designing, the survey that went out to community with hundreds of questions. I can remember how many questions we had, but it was a very large survey.

And that survey went out for, I don't know, 500 something people.

[Stevan] (21:28 - 21:29)

The IBAG survey.

[Felipe] (21:30 - 24:59)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The IBAG survey. And I guess one of the things that I personally wanted to put in that survey was a question to figure out that percentage of neurodiverse type people inside, what is the fraction of our community that is neurodiverse?

Because what I learned was when I was a director, and I mean, if you worked ever, comms is the base of everything, right? So comms is generally how things go either wrong or right. Like if you get comms right, things were going to be great.

But if you get comms wrong, things go completely haywire. And I realized that when we were doing a lot of our comms out to the community, the comms was not coming across the way we wanted for the comms to come across. There's a series of potential issues with that.

It's because we didn't have the capacity at the moment, blah, blah, blah. But that sparked the curiosity for how many of us are neurodiverse and is the comms, does the comms need to be tailored, right? And then, so that was the beginning of the thinking of how did I get to this topic.

It's very long ADHD type connections. And then I was like, oh, okay, that's an interesting thing. And then I started thinking about when I went to Burning Man or when you go into Burning Man Facebook community, there's so much snark, right?

And the snark is nasty. I'm like, why are we being so shitty? This is the opposite of what we try to be.

And I don't find that snark in the Australian Burner culture is as strong as it is in the US. In the US it's way worse. We do have snark here, but in Australia, I don't feel it as intense as it is in the US.

But fuck, don't go into the Burning Man community on Facebook because it's horrendous. People cannot ask anything and nobody will be helpful. People are just going to be absolute dickheads to them.

And that on the top of gatekeeping, and gatekeeping is a tricky one because sometimes gatekeeping is important. Keeping some types of information is important, but gatekeeping can also stifle progress. So I guess I just started putting those things together.

And as an ADHD person, and as a person that gets highly affected by how communication comes to me, that's where it came from. And that's why I wanted to put those things together because now I have a much better understanding of how I would like to be communicated with, or to. And just deep diving into that snark and gatekeeping and how that affects anyone, but especially neurodiverse people.

Yeah, it was just a really interesting ADHD topic rabbit hole for me to go down to. And it relates to what Dee is saying, which is psychological safety, right? That's what it is.

[Stevan] (24:59 - 25:03)

Yeah, there was no collusion between any of the presenters, right?

[Deirdre] (25:03 - 27:36)

No, there is now though. And it's so interesting what you're saying, Felipe, because I guess my whole career has been in communications. That's what I've done for a living all this time.

And I think in hindsight, also being now knowing I'm neurodivergent, probably because I didn't understand it, I went and studied it, got a master's in it, and then made my career based on it because I know what all the rules are. And so I know how to do it. And I love how you say comms is the basis of everything, because that's sort of what I've gone around saying is that you've got to communicate things the right way, and it really impacts the way that people feel and whether they feel welcome from a work perspective.

But then I think the psychosocial safety stuff is all, I mean, it's really all comms-based, because it's psychological. So, it's not physical. It's not about making sure that there's not a cord on the ground that you're going to trip on.

It's the way that you communicate and what you say and how you listen, whether you listen. Yeah, it's interesting. And just reflecting on when you were giving your presentation, the entire room, everyone in the room was nodding and saying, yes, exactly.

So, everyone is kind of thinking the same thing. But yeah, absolutely. I have been in those Facebook groups, and you see people going, I'm going to Burning Man for the first time.

What do I do? What kind of tent? Do you think this?

Do you think that? And then people just jump in and give them so much crap. I have been in there going, so how would you know what to do?

How would you know how to prepare? What would you do? And I guess I've been through that, but I just did a bunch of research.

And then I had this theme camp, which was a bunch of Californians that I sort of had to join a couple of online calls with. And they told us a few things. If I hadn't had that group of random strangers to tell me a few things, I would have been screwed.

But yeah, I mean, they were helpful in some ways, but there was also a fair bit of gatekeeping. It wasn't an easy experience. Let me put it that way.

Either time I went, it was not easy. It was like you're fighting the whole time with the snark and the gatekeeping and the smartass comments and all of that. So yeah, I think, as you say, the culture is so different here.

I don't think I would keep going back if it was like that.

[Stevan] (27:37 - 27:45)

Do you remember the survey result, Felipe? What was the result of that question? How many people are neurodivergent in our community?

[Deirdre] (27:46 - 27:48)

A hundred percent, I reckon.

[Felipe] (27:50 - 27:51)

Yeah, I had a feeling.

[Stevan] (27:51 - 27:54)

I think it was 60 percent.

[Felipe] (27:55 - 28:36)

It's nearly there.

It's nearly 60. It's about 59 percent of the community may process information and tone differently from non-neurodivergent people. But that doesn't mean that everybody is neurodivergent.

It's that there is a good 30 percent that identified as, I think, yes, I'm neurodivergent. And then there was another 25, 30 percent that was like, I'm exploring the possibilities of being neurodivergent, which means I'm just undiagnosed, but I think I am. So you can assume that potentially they are, right?

[Stevan] (28:36 - 28:52)

Well, that was the joke, I guess, the redundancy of the question, because, like you said, it should be 100 percent. But people are saying it's 60 or two-thirds, whereas the other third probably don't know that they're neurodivergent. That's the joke, right?

So it's 100 percent.

[Deirdre] (28:53 - 31:42)

Not yet. I mean, and it's sort of, I say it really flippantly, but obviously it's not an easy journey for anyone. But yeah, I mean, isn't that a lot of how we get here?

It's sort of, oh, we don't fit in. We've never fit in. And then you sort of wander into a place and you go, holy shit, these people are like me.

I'm like these people. There's people like me. Thank God.

And I remember that came across really loud and clear in your preso, Felipe, that you were like, ah, I found my people. But then that is an element of why the snark hurts so much, because you're out in a desert and there's a whole bunch of dudes wearing tutus and being sort of so out there compared to mainstream society. And then from my perspective, then I'm getting like massive and the snark had like a sexual harassment flavor.

And it's like, oh, cool. So we're all being out here and weird and different and edgy, but you're still sexually harassing me in a way that's much worse than I've ever experienced anywhere in a workplace or, you know, and you're only kind of opportunistically doing it or, you know, you're acting like I'm stupid because I'm Australian or whatever it is. And you kind of go, ah, shit.

How are you meant to kind of know? Do I belong? Do I not?

It's sort of, yeah, I think depending on your experience, I mean, I sort of go over the top maybe, but I am so invested in people having a good time that I will always sort of help people and, I don't know, try and explain things to people because otherwise, how are they going to know? Like, yeah, if people come away going, I'm confused. It's, I mean, it's like the pickleback slap.

I mean, you know, like you're going to have pickle juice and whiskey and then get slapped in the face. But if no one tells you what a pickleback slap is and they say, would you like one? And suddenly you got slapped in the face.

You're like, cool. All right. So that is your intended experience of a ban.

When you're American and you're over there, you want, that's what you want. You want to kind of go, here's something cool and then fuck you. Like that's the thing.

And I, when you were speaking before, it really made me think about, you know, there's a type of person and particularly, I think, neurodivergent person who has had that experience of never fitting in. And you sort of got to, it's like, you know, the two wolves. It's like, you've never fit in.

So you're going to make sure other people don't fit in and like, screw them. Or you've never fit in and you've been ostracized your whole life. And you think, I will never, ever let anyone experience that again.

I will make sure that no one ever has that pain because I've experienced it.

[Felipe] (31:42 - 35:04)

Yeah. And I think that's what it's about for me. And I mean, you know, you look at the 10 principles, the 10 principles is about their guidelines for how you become a better human and how do you navigate life being the best human being that you can be really, you know, and then, and then you experience Snark and Gatekeeping and that it's like, what?

That doesn't make any sense for what we are preaching. Like you're practicing a complete different thing than you're preaching. And it's funny that it's so embedded in the culture, right?

Snark is embedded in the culture as this joking, as you know, there's this joke tone to it, but underneath it, like if you really dig into it, Snark hurts, Snark actually hurts. And then if you are a neurodivergent people, Snark can hurt even more, Snark can keep with you for days, hours, weeks after you receive the comment, right? It can be a jokingly, fleeting, quick, Snarky comment that, ha ha, hee hee, it's funny here on the surface, but then under the surface, it's leaving a scar.

And that's the danger with it. And then when I started digging into it, I was like, well, if you're doing that and, you know, you have new people coming in, you know, virgins that don't understand still what this is about, or need to learn new information, and they are receiving that stuff, or even people that have been into it for a long time, and that Snark lands a little bit sharper than what the person could take at that point in time, it starts eroding the community from inside out.

And then we start losing some really key players into the community, people that have been contributing, and collaborating, and bringing new ideas, and bringing art, or just volunteering, and helping the event itself happen. So yeah, again, Snark is pain, and it's psychological pain, and it's not worth having it. So why are we not talking about it, and letting it continue to happen?

So I guess that's, for me, that was my motivation. I'm like, well, I'm gonna highlight this, and let's see what happens from that conversation. And it's been pretty amazing, because since I did the presentation, it was so weird.

Like, when I did the presentation at Bonza, I did not expect the amount of feedback that I received. And I received an overwhelming amount of really cool feedback, that literally made me emotional several times. I was actually tearing up during the presentation.

I don't know if people noticed, but my voice was breaking several times, because I've been on the end of Snark, and I've been on the end of Gatekeeping. And that was coming on the back of being completely burned down, from trying to make the event happen the year before, and then feeling responsible for failing with it. So it was, yeah, it was...

[Stevan] (35:04 - 35:20)

I also sensed a lot of nerves there as well, Felipe. But you did very well. So what kind of, like, public speaking, what kind of recommendations, what kind of tips or suggestions for...

Wait, before you answer that, how do I look naked out there?

[Felipe] (35:20 - 35:40)

Yeah, I wasn't imagining everybody naked. That's not what I did. It's...

Look, I don't know. I'm a scientist, so I've been trained, right? And I like acting, so it's...

[Stevan] (35:40 - 35:50)

But that's people's worst fears, right? You know, like spiders, or, you know, like, you know, falling, free falling. The worst fear is public speaking.

[Felipe] (35:50 - 36:01)

Yeah, it comes... Like, I mean, if you're not nervous, there's something wrong. You should be nervous.

Like, you shouldn't be freaking out, but you should be nervous.

[Stevan] (36:01 - 36:02)

Don't be afraid of butterflies.

[Felipe] (36:03 - 36:26)

Yeah, it's okay. Being nervous is okay. And I think it's just that.

It's just being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Like, it's learning how to be... To sit with being uncomfortable, yes?

And I guess that was it for me. Like, once I got there, even though my voice was breaking, and I was hungover from the night before, I managed. And it's been pretty cool since then.

[Stevan] (36:27 - 36:28)

For you, Deirdre, any tips?

[Deirdre] (36:29 - 37:58)

Yeah, so I used to do a fair bit of presenting, but I haven't for a long time. So I was also just completely panicking. But then I tend to come across as calm when I'm panicking.

So it's confusing. But yeah, I mean, when I studied comms, it was all about, you know, slow your breathing down. Because once you start freaking out, then you can't wheel it back.

But I mean, mostly it's about knowing your topic, right? And I think for both of us, it's like going back to your previous question, we're both so passionate about it. And we came to it with such a sort of background to how we got here and why we want to talk about it.

It's not just some sort of boring, I don't know, work presentation. It's something we're so passionate about. And I can imagine that's where some of that emotion was coming from, Felipe.

It's sort of your passion was coming across so much. And yeah, when something is that important, that's why, you know, it's hard not to get worked up about it. And that for me, I was almost the opposite, where I feel like this topic is so important to me.

And it was so important to tell everyone exactly the right thing and explain it in the right level of detail that I was sort of, you know, 3am the night before going, oh, I should put my slides together. Like I couldn't get my thoughts to come together in the one. So, you know, you were preparing for a year, I was not, but I guess it's also, I've been preparing for years.

It's just was, it's hard because you kind of, it's, yeah, it's that important.

[Stevan] (37:59 - 38:23)

So both of your ideas, topics, presentation, for me, the underlying, I guess, thought for me was about the topic of humour. So I want to know, well, humour is subjective, right? So I want to know what type of humour do you guys like?

Do you guys like observational humour? Do you guys like, I guess, do you like a bit of slapsticks humour? Crude humour?

Toilet jokes? Fart jokes? Are they your thing?

[Deirdre] (38:23 - 40:04)

Well, that was, that was part of what I sort of was thinking about in the lead up to this was, yeah, what, what is humour? Cause yeah, when you talk about snark, like that's sort of the classic burning man, oh, we think this is so funny. You know, snark is hilarious.

And I think, you know, there's a couple of things for me, like it's only funny if everyone's laughing. So like, if you're making fun of someone, if someone is the butt of the joke and they didn't choose to be, I don't find that funny. And sort of the punching up, not down.

So if, if you're making fun of people or institutions or whatever with more power, it's funny to kind of tear them down a little bit, but it's not funny to make fun of people with less power. Cause that's just mean. So I guess, yeah, for me, it's probably a delicate balance.

Like I probably find a lot of things funny and, but yeah, anything that is just mean, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if that's, cause I can also be quite, you know, Australians were more sarcastic, right.

Or facetious. Yeah. I'm yeah.

Pretty dry humour. But then also like, you know, Felipe that could come across as a bit, yeah. It's like that, you know, if, if you say the opposite of what you mean and like, that's really funny, that sort of very culturally, you know, sensitive, it's like, could you understand that if you weren't Australian or, you know, I quite often, I'm guilty of it.

Like I often say things, I say serious things and people are like, oh, that's so funny. And then I say something I think is hilarious and people go, oh, oh, like they think I'm yeah, being serious. So it's, I, I don't know, I get it right, but I am enjoying myself.

[Felipe] (40:06 - 42:36)

Look, yeah, that's a, that's a, it's an interesting, interesting point. Cause I have the, my personal sense of humour is probably the darkest, most darkest unhinged sense of humour. So like, sometimes I make a joke that, that like, if people don't know me, they're gonna, they're gonna be like, holy shit, you shouldn't be saying that out loud.

And, and it's correct. They're right. Like I should not be saying that out loud.

But I think I get away just because people know that I'm so freaking unhinged that it just comes out and I'm like, ooh, I just said that. And I just said that so naturally that I didn't even think about it and just happened. So that's my sense of humour.

So it's, it's in this case here is do what I say, don't do what I do. Cause like, I'm not, I'm no saint. I can claim being a saint here, but the whole point is, I guess for me, yes, we can, we can, we can, we can, we have to be careful how we laugh at things.

And I think this is super right there, like punch, punch up and tear the people with power down rather than, than, you know, smashing the minorities even more. But overall, I think as a community, like we need to be better at lifting each other up. Right.

We have, we have a big platform where we can through this platform, like make sure that we are, we are promoting our artists to become better artists. We are, we are getting, you know, people that are coming in to help manage the event in all sorts of different capacities and capabilities to get better at that and to learn how to be better humans for the community overall. So let's, let's start like lifting each other and with humour, with humour and, and, and the humour, you know, like doesn't need to be snarky.

Like we can, we have better ways of, of using humour. Australia is very good at larrikanism and, and I guess larrikanism is, is, is that like, is, is the larrikanisms is, is literally going for the, you know, the, the, the high powers, I suppose. That's, that's kind of how I see larrikanism, I guess.

It's, it's, it's making jokes on those powers.

[Stevan] (42:37 - 42:48)

So burners do have a good sense of humour and what kind of, and what kind of humour would you find at a burn, do you think? What, what ranges? I love, I love, you know, silliness, goofiness, outrageousness.

[Deirdre] (42:48 - 42:51)

The unexpected, I really like the unexpected, yeah.

[Stevan] (42:52 - 42:53)

Unapologetic humour?

[Deirdre] (42:54 - 42:56)

Puns, good puns.

[Stevan] (42:56 - 42:56)

Love puns.

[Deirdre] (42:57 - 43:01)

Love a pun or a bit of improv, you know.

[Felipe] (43:01 - 43:12)

Dark humour, like you said, do you find dark humour at the burns? Depends, depends on the dark humour. Like it's, it's, it's all, it's so nuanced, right?

Like as long as it's not offensive.

[Deirdre] (43:13 - 44:12)

And, and like everything at a burn, it's, if it's, if it's opt-in, I think if it's, it's a, it's kind of a discussion about consent as well. If it's opt-in, you can kind of walk past something and go, interesting, and keep moving. But if it's opt-out, and I guess maybe if snark is directed at you, you know, you can't, you can't sort of go, oh, no, thank you.

I don't like that. Yeah. But I mean, there's a lot of things that, yeah, people like, or they don't like, or, you know, you go and you see, you kind of see something and you go, ha, that's weird.

I like it. Didn't know I would find that funny, like some weird puppet show or something. Or like, you know, the Thunderdome, kind of go, oh, that's hilarious and dark and interesting.

But yeah, you sort of find everything, don't you? Like you find so many creative and weird and wonderful things. Yeah.

But as long as you get to choose what you participate in, I think that's important.

[Stevan] (44:13 - 44:24)

So, Felipe, in your presentation, during the talk, so after with the question and the questioning time, you mentioned that pilot burn was a breakthrough moment for you. Would you like to talk a bit more about that?

[Felipe] (44:25 - 48:52)

Yeah, look, I mean, I was hellbent on not going to pilot burn. I was like, I will not go to pilot burn. There was nothing in the planet that was convincing me that I was going to pilot burn.

And funnily enough, I live in the lower mountains, so my house is on the way to the burn. And I'm good friends with pretty much the entire board. And I, like, we were supporting, fixing the generators.

But my boyfriend, Peter, was fixing the gennies from SBA that were like, here on my garage, sitting on my garage while he was working on them. And by then I was butthurt. I was like, I will not go to the fucking burn.

And I don't want any of the burn shit in my house. Like, it was a problem. But then I was like, but at the same time, I was like, I want to go to the burn, but I don't want to go to the burn.

So I decided that how I could contribute to the community this time around on my capacity was making art. Like, I was like, I cannot do fire. And I had, like, I had TJ come into me several times throughout the year and said, come on, let's get on the fire team with me.

And because that's where I thrive in real life is fire works. So I can do the fire stuff. And I love it.

But yeah, like, I was, I'm just gonna go and do art. If I get an art grant, I'll do art and that's it. So I got an art grant and I got granted that.

And I made a large scale art piece. But then was the night that it got canned. So half of the crew was actually here in my house, ready to go.

There was people going up and people were actually stopping at my house. And I was getting some of the communications of the thing, like stopping and they stopped decision making because I know some of the people on the board and I was seeing that happening live while seeing all the comments going on the internet at the same time. And I like my first instinct was like, I cannot have these guys having to go through the same shit that I went through and Shiny and all the directors of last year went through, that all of our people went through last year.

I cannot have that happening again. And I will do whatever it takes to help these guys get this burn across the board. That was my instant reaction.

And then instantly we were in group chats with people organizing the pivot burn and figuring out how do we go about the pivot burn and getting information from Gabe and from Tereasa and from Leanna. Because we needed that to come from the org itself, although the community was already self-organizing and figuring stuff out and helping them. We needed SBA to step in and give the right direction and the direction that would be the right one for the organization.

So it's just that thing of I've been through this and I don't want anyone to have to bear that weight again because it was shit for me. Personally, it was shit for everyone. We had to cancel a burn.

But being on that end of being on the leadership and having to go through that decision making is pretty rough. And I didn't want to see that happen. And I think once we got there, that I saw my art piece and then I got so much amazing feedback from people interacting with my art piece on the paddock.

Yeah, it was that moment I was like, yeah, okay, I want to be part of this. It's like, I was just tired. I guess I was just tired and burned out.

But I can't leave this because it is a huge part of who I am and what I stand for. And the community is incredible. Without this community, I can't even picture my life.

All my friends are burners, like literally every single one of them. We talk daily. They are my family.

So yeah, it's that.

[Stevan] (48:53 - 48:55)

So you became rejuvenated.

[Felipe] (48:56 - 50:00)

Yeah, well, rejuvenated. I don't know. Rejuvenated after a burn.

I have my doubts about that. But yeah, it just gave me gas to be there again and to actively re-engage into it. But also, yeah, yeah, definitely uplifted me.

But to re-engage with, I guess, as well, with now more knowledge about myself and how much can I give, because there's got to be a balance, I guess. And sometimes we lose the balance because we are too passionate and we want to see it happening. And we push harder and harder.

But we do need to be careful about ourselves and burning out because we want to be there. We want to be showing up to help people. We want to be showing up to uplift each other.

And we need to have the energy to do that. So it's important to pace, I guess.

[Stevan] (50:01 - 50:07)

Your art piece, Toucan't Land, you brought a bit of a heritage, your own heritage to the art piece.

[Felipe] (50:07 - 51:08)

Yes, I did. So the art piece was also part of my process. The whole point of the art piece was bringing first the toucan, that is a South American bird.

And it was all about this bird that is coming to a spot and doesn't know if he can land or not land. And so he's in permanent motion and he's uncertain about landing or not. So that was, I guess, yeah, looking back at it, it's pretty much a representation of how I was feeling at that point.

I had this weird sense of belonging and it was more related to the process of I felt like I failed the community rather than doing what I wanted to do for the community, which was to help bringing people together through the past year. Yeah. So that's where it came from.

[Stevan] (51:08 - 51:56)

Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that with us.

The Pilot Burn for me, I also felt very privileged to be a part of it, to experience it. So yeah, I love the experience too. Can we take a quick hydration break and we'll be right back to talk more, dive deeper into both of your topics.

All right. Let's talk about harm of snark and gatekeeping, Felipe. So this is your presentation.

Now, if I remember yours was on a Sunday, right? And I think you came up to me on a Saturday and you said, oh, you got to listen to my presentation. And I thought, yes, I'm excited to listen to about fire.

Like I knew that you were a fire expert, but you kind of subverted my expectation there. So it was perfect. It was great.

Do you know how long you spoke for? We've timed it.

[Felipe] (51:56 - 52:04)

I don't. I feel like I spoke for like 15 minutes cause that's what I was given, but I don't know exactly.

[Stevan] (52:05 - 52:13)

It was 21 minutes. This is, this is not including the, um, the question time, but, uh, yeah, 21 minutes. It was good.

It was perfect. Good times.

[Felipe] (52:15 - 52:19)

That's a keynote.

I should have spoken less. I was given 15. Oops.

[Stevan] (52:21 - 52:44)

So let's get into it. The snark is a combination of sarcasm. This is the meaning that you presented to us that you offered to us.

Snark is a combination of sarcasm, cynicism, and superiority. The purpose of it is often not communication. It's positioning.

So what feels like harmless jokes to one person may be experienced as a genuine threat signal by another person.

[Felipe] (52:44 - 54:25)

Yep. Um, Ooh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get the help of the psychologist here, I guess. Um, well, yeah, that's what it is. It's, uh, I had to go in and dig for the definition of snark myself.

Cause it was like, okay, what is the actual definition of, of what defines snark and what makes it different from banter? Right. I think that was the first thing for me to understand myself and to unravel in my own mind.

And, and, and, and there's that, those questions, right? What, what is a joke? What is, was I being mocked?

Was that a joke? So it's, it's that nuance that, that, that, that, that, that makes the communication hard to, I guess, suppose how to decode, especially if you are a neurodivergent person, you might decode that in a different way and process that in a different way, which, which increases load, literally makes you tired. So yeah, I think understanding what is snark is the first thing.

So snark comes from that. It's a combination of sarcasm, cynicism, and superiority. And, and it comes across, the purpose of it is not communicating.

The purpose of it is positioning. So that's what defines snark. I lost the track, lost the train, lost the train of thought. Sorry.

[Stevan] (54:25 - 54:36)

So you also continue to say that snark and banter are really not the same. The difference comes down to intent, consent, power dynamics, and impact.

So pretty much, don't be a cunt.

[Felipe] (54:36 - 56:04)

In summary, yeah, in summary. But, but it's, it's, it's interesting because it, it's not, I mean, it's not completely black and white, right? And that's where it becomes interesting, I suppose, and fascinating.

It's, it's all on the intent. It's all on the consent and those power dynamics and the impact of what you were saying or what is being communicated. But the difference in between banter and snark is that banter, banter is inviting you in.

So we are laughing together at this, even if I'm mocking something, like I could, like mocking something can be banter, right? Like, but it's only banter because I am like a close friend to that person, to the point that I can use that mockery in, in a banter space, I suppose. But the, like, that's the difference.

Banter invites you in, snark pushes you out. That, that, that's, that's how you kind of define it. So snark says you are beneath us and while banter, banter is, is, is just us having a good time together.

So banter actually builds community and snark doesn't. Snark does the opposite. Snark, snark starts undermining community.

[Deirdre] (56:05 - 58:20)

Snark builds or is intended, I'm guessing, to kind of build up the existing community, the kind of the in group. So it's a, it's a really clicky thing, isn't it? So it's, it's a really cheap, easy, I would say lazy and stupid way to sort of build, you know, it's, it's like a group that gossips about someone who's not there as a way to bond.

And that is, it's sort of one of the quickest and easiest ways to connect, is to complain about someone who's not there and, and say something negative. But it's toxic and it will destroy the, the connection won't last. So it's, yeah, it's not a very evolved way because it's, it's a really brittle connection.

People don't walk away feeling good about that. They'll walk away, like in the moment, it might be easy to go, oh yeah, ha ha. But then we all know that if someone's talking crap about someone to you, you walk away and think, okay, so that, that's just the way they are.

They're talking about me that way too. It sort of speaks to the, I don't know, a person's character or maybe, you know, maybe people just don't know any better. But I think, yeah, it's, it is, snark is in its nature, it's intended to criticize someone and to put them down.

And again, that's the laziest way that people make themselves feel good is to put someone else down and you sort of think, yeah, okay, so that, that's easy and quick, but it's actually much harder to make yourself feel better. Just make yourself feel better based on yourself and then raising other people up. I don't, yeah, it's a bit of the kind of, I'll be strong, aggressive and angry and snarky and that'll make me look and feel strong, like maybe in the short term, but actually it tells me that you're, you're not, because why, why do you have to be snarky?

That's just, it's just not, you're, you're not creating, you're destroying, like it's destructive and that's not what we're here for.

[Stevan] (58:20 - 58:38)

So there needs to be a presence of consent with snark for everyone to be laughing along. Otherwise there's this power dynamics at play here. And can we talk about the impact then?

So I guess with something that goes viral, it can not just make a lasting impact, but it can really scar as well.

[Felipe] (58:39 - 58:40)

I'm thinking on that one.

[Deirdre] (58:41 - 1:01:06)

I mean, we can all, we can all think back to something that someone said to us, you know, when we were, I don't know, 10, 12 years old, like, can you think back to something that someone said to you or a situation, like, I don't know, do you ever like wake up at 3am and go, oh shit, I just realised that that person was saying this or this situation was that, and I misread it. You know, these are the things that kind of stick with you. It's, and that again, so that, that is science is that the bad is stronger than the good.

So we are wired to, we're wired for negative things to resonate. And that, you know, that's all that kind of, we had to protect ourselves back in the cave or wherever we were. Our neural pathways, you know, the negative ones, they are the ones that are the strongest.

And it's actually, that's why I say it's cheap, easy and weak, because it's actually so much harder. You know, you're, we have automatic negative thoughts. I don't know about you, but anytime something happens, something changes, it's uncomfortable.

Ah, this is going to be terrible. And, you know, your automatic thought is often negative. That's just normal.

It's the choice that you make after that, that kind of defines your character. So if you have that negative thought and then you go, wait, hang on, maybe that's not true. Maybe things could be better in the future.

Maybe this isn't terrible, you know, or I see someone doing something and I think, what an idiot, they should know not to do that at a burn. Or, you know, like I think of seeing someone throw their water on the ground, you know, in the desert and going, oh, hey, did you know that that could, you know, damage the fire? Or seeing someone drop rubbish and going, oh, hey, would you mind picking that up?

Whatever, instead of just yelling at them and being awful and aggressive, because they're going to remember that and feel like an idiot. And obviously most people's response is then to come back at you with more aggression and it just escalates. So there's actually a lot of strength in having to, you know, or trying to choose a positive and take that route, even though I think people often think that's weaker, you know, oh, you're being too nice, you're being friendly.

But yeah, that's that's my view, backed with some science.

[Felipe] (1:01:08 - 1:02:19)

And yeah, let me articulate my thoughts. Yeah, and again, for neurodiverse people, those negative thoughts can stay for longer, right? So the way they process that kind of comment is just different.

So it can stick with us for much longer and we can ruminate on those negative interactions for like way longer, like way, like it can be months. Like I can have episodes that I'm like, oh, I said that at that meeting and I instantly feel ashamed for something that I said in a meeting back six months ago, like, you know, so those kinds. So SNARK interacts in the same neural pathway, I suppose, like it can stick with you and that affects the individual.

But then when you have that affecting that many individuals in a community, then it's affecting the whole community. So yeah, it's, it's, it's.

[Stevan] (1:02:19 - 1:02:36)

Yeah, yeah. SNARK does definitely create like a hierarchy if someone is laughed at, but it also creates ambiguity. Like you're saying that uncertainty creates that cognitive load, you know, that is more, you know, it takes a lot more to process than the actual joke itself sometimes.

[Felipe] (1:02:36 - 1:03:19)

Yeah, look, I'm not going to claim the whole science here. I think Deirdre is the psychologist and will have a better understanding of the science here. I, yeah, I understand it.

It's part of the neuroscience of it because I'm curious and I dug into it. But yeah, it definitely, it lights up the brain systems that are related to the brain. That's, that's what happens when you are on the, on the end of a SNARK comment, you are lighting up the same neural pathways of actual physical pain, which is interesting.

Yeah.

[Deirdre] (1:03:19 - 1:05:50)

Yeah, exactly. And that's, and yeah, that's really important because the experiencing being ostracized from a group is actually the most painful thing you can experience. It's more painful than sort of breaking a leg or something because you can, you know, you break a bone and it's a pretty clear pathway to resolution and healing.

It, it gets fixed, it grows back, it heals, it knits back together. But, you know, the way that I guess, you know, this is more for you, Felipe, that biologically, you know, the way that we're wired is that, you know, if we, back in the day, if we were ejected from the social group, we died. We were sitting around a campfire and if the group said, no, get out, we no longer had access to the fire or the food or anything.

So we actually, we died. So that's, that is the science is that the, the pain that you feel and the fear that you feel with that social rejection or the not knowing, which is what SNARK kind of sows in us, it's, it's worse. And you can never, you can never resolve it.

So it will just go around and around in circles. And that's what rumination is because you can never, you can never solve it. It can never be done.

So it'll go around and around and especially for neurodivergent people, not understanding and then not understanding what they didn't understand. And then next time going in kind of even less confident, less sure of themselves. Yeah.

So I think it's particularly damaging. Yeah. For, for all of those reasons that we're discussing and yeah, just kind of not necessary.

I think, you know, if you're going to be snarky, do it at yourself. Like Australians are really good at making themselves a punchline. You know, I can make fun of myself, but it's not really for anyone else to do it unless they're a really close friend and it's sort of a safe topic.

Or, you know, if someone says something and then later they say, oh, I'm really sorry, I didn't mean it that way. And you have that kind of repair moment, but that's, that's not really what I'm thinking. When I think about snark, I can think of all those examples where it's that public kind of shaming of someone that is intended to make the person who did it look smarter, you know, better, more popular, whatever it is.

And I just think, oh gosh, we're at a burn. Like it's not a popularity contest, which it's like, again, a bunch of weirdos out in the desert in strange outfits or, you know, on the paddock roaming around. It's just like.

Yeah.

[Felipe] (1:05:51 - 1:07:14)

And you know what is interesting? And I think that that's probably part of the reason of why it's not existing, the burner community. It's like, I like to think of us as a bunch of misfits, right?

So it's like, there's people coming from all different walks of life, but then you get a whole bunch of people that were, you know, the kids that were the awkward kids and that didn't have, were not the popular kids on school and blah, blah, blah, especially in the American context. And then suddenly you put these kids into this amazing universe where we can do basically anything within, you know, boundaries, but basically anything. And then they are suddenly the popular kids.

And I don't know if that being, I don't know, injected into this popularity or this popular position, but just because you made heaps of friends and everybody's cool. And then I don't know, like, is that what it is? Is that like power corrupts and then they start getting snarky?

I don't know if that's where it comes from, but maybe, just occur to me, that's what.

[Stevan] (1:07:15 - 1:07:32)

Well, can I ask you then, is there such a thing as healthy snark? I mean, you know, for some people, people use snark or humour, especially a lot of dark humour or, you know, to open up communications, to open up the channels of communications and use it as a mechanism.

[Felipe] (1:07:33 - 1:08:37)

I don't think so. I don't think there is healthy snark. Like if you, once you understand, once you understand the definition of snark, there is no healthy snark.

Snark is not by definition a nice thing. Like a nice thing is banter. Banter is nice.

Snark is not nice. Snark is laughing at someone, reducing them into some shape, way, or form, or their capacity, capability. It doesn't matter.

It's like you're mocking someone. You're diminishing them when you make a snarky remark. Banter is the opposite.

Banter is, we are laughing together. We are bantering. Like this is creating a bond.

Like we are ping-ponging and we are, and you can, like banter, again, depends, it all depends on context and that's why it's complicated.

[Stevan] (1:08:38 - 1:08:50)

It also depends on language as well as tone, right? Language matters. I mean, people in most communities, they adopt that passive-aggressive tone.

[Deirdre] (1:08:51 - 1:11:17)

Also body language. So like a huge proportion of the way that we communicate is body language and, you know, whatever the science is around the first millisecond of seeing someone is when the first judgment is made. So, you know, what I'm thinking back to, yeah, the most impactful and negative experiences of snark that I've had, and it was always like a, you know, a group of men in an art car driving past me when I was on my own out in Deep Playa.

And you think, yeah, so you're necessarily in a position of power or you're putting yourself in a position of sort of power and you're, you know, you're being mean and nasty and then you're all laughing about it. And you think, is that, that's how you're having fun today? Kind of, but I mean the fact that I can picture and I know exactly what these people said in 2016, that's how impactful it is.

And yeah, I think, you know, if you think about banter, it's fun and it goes back and forth and everyone is an equal participant. That's the thing. Banter implies everyone is chatting, whereas snark sort of, to me, feels like a one-way asymmetrical thing, right?

It's not a symmetrical model. It's one person speaking down to another or a group speaking down to someone. And you know, Felipe mentioned dark humour and that's a kind of, it's like a coping mechanism and it's quite morbid, but it's normally about yourself.

And I mean, I've sort of got a lot of that too, and a lot of friends who do that kind of thing. And it's like, you would never, you would never make fun of someone else, you know, who was going through, I don't know, it's thinking of, you know, someone who is very unwell or, you know, someone's had a family member pass away, something like that. You would never, ever say something about someone else, but you sure as hell would say it about yourself to kind of make light or to have a little moment of levity in amongst a difficult time.

So yeah, I think it's, you know, semantics obviously, but we kind of know, I guess, what we're talking about. But yeah, maybe I think they also potentially, people probably think of them quite differently. We're very sure we know what they are, but.

[Felipe] (1:11:18 - 1:11:18)

Yeah.

[Stevan] (1:11:19 - 1:11:35)

So if there is no such thing as healthy snark, then can we talk about snark versus roasting versus satire versus parody? Now the meme culture is very, very strong in the burner culture, in the burner scene.

[Felipe] (1:11:36 - 1:12:46)

Yeah, look, I think roasting is an interesting one, right? Roasting is within roasting as well, as long as there is consent to roast, right? So when there is consent and the subject of the roast, if it's a person that you're roasting is there for it and like, yeah, please go for it, that's banter, right?

That's what banter is. Like you are embedding humour and you're roasting someone and you're kind of criticizing them, but you're not being mean. So that, it's a very fine line, I think, to have the right to hit the mark when you're roasting someone.

And I think to hit that mark, you need to be in a very safe space with that person that you're roasting. Like, I wouldn't roast anyone that I don't know. Look, I wouldn't dare roasting anyone that I don't know well enough to make sure that they are okay with the roast, if that makes sense.

[Stevan] (1:12:47 - 1:13:18)

Now, the way I see snark is like a slippery slope, right? So one nudge away from what you intended to say becomes, I guess, it becomes like a clusterfuck. It gets into racism, it gets to ageism, sexism, stuff like that.

So, I mean, with snark, you also have sarcasm and satire and parody, which I think some, most of them are really brilliant. I love a good parody. I love a good satire.

[Felipe] (1:13:19 - 1:14:33)

I'm thinking, yeah, I mean, so do I. I love a good satire and a good parody, parodies especially. But that's humour, right?

Like that's mockery, like parody is mockery. Parody, well, depends on the parody, but generally there is a critic element to it as well, which is always endearing to watch. Yeah, but those are different.

There are different mechanisms, I guess, from what I was thinking about. So, yeah, look, I'm here for those kinds of sense of humour as well. But I guess, as we said, everything needs to have that psychological safety, which is what Deirdre was talking about.

There's always, it's consent and understanding and opting in. If the receiver of that thing is opting in, then you're probably in a safe space. If the receiver of that comment or that satire or that humour is not opting in, then you are treading treacherous waters, I guess.

I think that's a good way to put it.

[Stevan] (1:14:34 - 1:14:47)

Yeah, but, you know, there are some stuff that, you know, that filters through, I guess, the humour meter, but they are, I guess, sometimes cruel or damaging to people's psyche.

[Deirdre] (1:14:47 - 1:15:47)

Yeah, and it comes down to what the intention is, right? So is it one-on-one, bantery and funny? Like, are you trying to be funny or are you just trying to be a dick?

Or are you just being thoughtless? Or what you see so often is they're trying to exclude people, like they're trying to show that you don't know anything, so screw you. And it's like, cool, right?

Well done. You just want to prove that it's such an exclusive community and there's so much that you need to know that you couldn't possibly access it, and I don't think that's what any of us want. I mean, obviously, there's a huge hurdle or, you know, there's massive barriers to entry that you have to overcome, but some of them don't need to be, you know, when you ask a question in a, you know, Burning Man group, hey, I've got this tent.

Do you think that I'll survive in this tent for a week that people go, you know, fuck your burn?

[Felipe] (1:15:47 - 1:15:48)

Yeah.

[Deirdre] (1:15:48 - 1:17:12)

How many burns have you been to?

Screw you. And it's like, I mean, yeah, maybe there's nuances, like someone going, hi, I'm here at Burning Man. I heard everything is gifted, so I've brought nothing, and that's one thing.

Like, haha, what an idiot. But still, I mean, yeah, there would be a way to teach, to help people learn. I don't know.

I mean, we talked at Bonza as well about how we kind of encourage younger people to come along, and I think, you know, just being snarky and shitty is not a way to kind of make anyone feel welcome and safe, and like they're learning how to become part of something, or, you know, they're coming along and seeing whether they want to be part of it, and if they walk away with some pretty core negative memories, maybe they won't bother coming back.

Like, why would they? I don't know. It's, I mean, like Felipe saying, oh, I really don't want to go, and oh, but I kind of have to go, and that's that thing.

I mean, that's not even necessarily just snark, but yeah, we know that it's so hard. It's so hard, but then you don't need extra, I don't know. I mean, it's not like we're all sitting around singing kumbaya all the time.

Yes, we are hippies to some extent, but, you know, we can make fun of ourselves and the situation, but we don't need to be mean on purpose, and we don't need to be trying to exclude people who are trying to join.

[Stevan] (1:17:12 - 1:17:20)

The other slide that you had, Felipe, was talking about emotional contagion, where the vibe becomes the culture.

[Felipe] (1:17:21 - 1:19:28)

Yeah, so that was, well, another one of my, when I was putting the presentation together, I was just, yeah, following the dopamine trail, really, and then I bumped on this concept of psychology, which is actually a phenomenon that I think was described in the 90s officially, which basically is what it says. It's like your emotions spread like a flu, like a cold, negative and positive. So if you are in an environment where the culture is cunty and people are being dicks to each other and being snarky to each other, that normalizes and then it becomes the norm, right?

And so I guess that slide was there for us, because we were in that leadership event. What we want to have as our culture, as leads is, and how do we, this happens in the conversations, not exclusively at the event, but it happens throughout the year in the conversations, in the interactions that the community have throughout the year. So if we start being nicer to each other, and I think we are pretty good in Australia, don't get me wrong.

I think our communities tend to be really way, way, better than what I've seen in America. We still have our dramas, because every Burner community has the dramas, but it's basically that. Emotions are contagious, and they spread, and the way how we treat each other gets picked up and reflected back to us.

So it's, yeah, it's a phenomenon, and it happens. So just kind of be nice, rather than being, don't be a cunt. Again, it's like, you can circle back, just don't be a cunt.

[Deirdre] (1:19:28 - 1:20:54)

Well, try not to be anyway. And like, it's possible, like, none of us are perfect, obviously. It's possible to be one and not intend to be.

And then, you know, as soon as you realize it, or if someone says that they felt that way, you know, maybe, like we touched briefly on rupture repair, that's how relationships are built. We don't have relationships where everyone's just peace, love, and light 24-7. We have relationships where we do make mistakes, and then the process of repairing from that rupture is how you build a stronger relationship.

So that is something I would add. So yeah, again, it's sort of, I mean, it is about intention, but also, we kind of, we judge other people on their behavior, and we judge ourselves on our intention. So it's a really complex thing.

You know, I might say something, and you go, oh, that was snarky. And I think, oh, I was being really funny. And, you know, you would think, oh, she was being mean and horrible.

But if you were able to kind of say, oh, hey, that hurt, is that what you meant? And I could say, oh, shit, sorry, I can see that's the way it came across. You know, that's not what I meant at all.

But now, that would be a highly elevated way for everyone to be behaving. So maybe just, yeah, don't be mean.

[Felipe] (1:20:55 - 1:22:46)

And I think that's a very good point, Deirdre. I mean, overall, I guess the whole point of that conversation was to highlight the definitions of what is snark, what is gatekeeping, and what is the difference in between that and banter. But also, it's allowing us to have these conversations now where people can come to each other and say, oh, you said that, and that felt a bit snarky to me.

And then you can pause and say, oh, okay, I'll hold myself accountable here. Sorry, I didn't mean to be snarky. Like, I was making a comment thinking it was going to be funny, and it came across as snarky to you.

So I'm really sorry, that's not what I meant. So I think just the fact that we're having this conversation, it's going to open up a whole bunch of other conversations where otherwise people would just walk away offended, and then the thing deteriorates. So I agree with Deirdre.

We need to be also better at, I suppose, the healing part of this community is like, let's start bringing those people that felt hurt by a comment or by, you know, a moment, and start repairing the damage. Because it's just comms, right? It's comms.

And sometimes the person that did a snarky remark doesn't even know that they were being snarky. So it's, yeah, like, you're so right. Nobody's a saint.

We cannot be, you know, love and light all the time. It happens. Shit happens.

Like, it's communication. We are human.

[Stevan] (1:22:47 - 1:24:17)

So with emotional contagion, can we talk about, so you mentioned earlier Facebook. So let's talk about Facebook versus Reddit versus ePlayer. So we're talking about online and offline personas, right?

So with Reddit, people are saying that there is less snark on Reddit than on Facebook, but there's still social media platforms, right? There was an actual good quote here. One of them said that with snark, the way it's been used is that some of the local regionals have used it as a way to thin the herd down a bit because we have a few overlap with a number of subcultures that all have different ideas of how to do things and bring people in.

All well and good, but drink your water to cherries, like drink your Kool-Aid. So the worst problems we've seen have been the unprepared, uninitiated showing up and not knowing how to take care of themselves and not understanding the culture. So it was explained to them that years ago, this was born from the remnants of the proto-burn cultures of the cacophony society melted into DPW and work folks and some of the early adopters using the burns as an outlet for their more aggressive feelings.

So snark being used to thin out the herd and snark is in our DNA at Burning Man, at burn culture. And is it true that Reddit has less snark than Facebook?

[Felipe] (1:24:18 - 1:24:19)

Don't know.

[Deirdre] (1:24:19 - 1:24:21)

I think so, absolutely.

[Stevan] (1:24:21 - 1:24:24)

Why is that?

People more civilised?

[Deirdre] (1:24:24 - 1:24:26)

I don't know about more civilised.

[Stevan] (1:24:26 - 1:24:31)

Yeah, people trust Reddit more or something. It's an interesting, you know, fascinating.

[Deirdre] (1:24:33 - 1:25:33)

Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Because on Reddit you are anonymous and on Facebook normally you're not, although you can be now. But I think there's like a pride.

I've seen a pride in being snarky on Facebook. Like, I am this person and rah, rah, you're an idiot and what a loser, don't bother coming. It was better next year.

You kind of think, oh, all right, stay away. And yeah, maybe, I mean, you're right. It probably is intentional to thin the herd.

And then it's like, so what, you think you're in a herd and you're trying to thin it? I don't know. It's just all weird, real kind of macho alpha bullshit in my mind.

It's just absolute rubbish. And it's gatekeeping, isn't it? I've got to thin the herd.

It's my responsibility to go onto Facebook and tell people to fuck off. Is it? Is that your responsibility?

Is that, like, you think that you're the super duper I've been to Burning Man 15 times or whatever? It's like, yeah. Wow.

[Stevan] (1:25:34 - 1:25:41)

It's also, I guess, maybe you're also spreading misinformation as well. That could be the case.

[Deirdre] (1:25:41 - 1:26:02)

Yeah, they do that on purpose. Yeah, exactly. And then you look at it and think, shit, like they're actually saying things to people that they're going to take literally.

And I think, so there's a Facebook group that is like something like Burning Man first time is no snark, if you've seen that.

[Felipe] (1:26:02 - 1:26:05)

That's a nice one, actually. I've been there.

[Deirdre] (1:26:06 - 1:27:41)

Yeah, yeah. So people in there and the fact that that's created and it says no snark, that's been created because there's a vacuum. And I mean, yeah, I mean, there's a side of people and like, I can see it like, haha, it's really funny to go, I know, be fine, just wear your sandals and bring, you know, half a liter of water, you'll be fine.

Haha, that's really funny. But then if you think of the reality of people being out in the desert and they don't have what they need or people showing up and having a terrible time and needing to go to medical and I don't know, it's and it's so often maybe a bit controversial, yet true. It's so often I see it's American men who are white and straight and cis and they have a lot of money and they're on there.

That's who's doing it. It's never women. It's never people not from America.

It's never, it's never anyone apart from that. It's always, I get the real like tech bro kind of vibe from it of people who have a lot of money and have this privilege that they can push people away and make fun of them. And it's like, well, I don't know, it's some, you see someone who goes, oh, I'm coming from some other country and I've never been before and I'm flying in and what's the best way to, you know, pick up a car and buy some stuff and get there.

And they're just such assholes about it. And it's like, why are you being so difficult?

[Felipe] (1:27:41 - 1:27:44)

What is the benefit? Yeah, what is the benefit?

[Deirdre] (1:27:44 - 1:27:56)

Stay away from our important event where we sit around and, you know, do job interviews for our exec team and all this bullshit. Cause that's what some of them do. But you know, that's.

[Stevan] (1:27:56 - 1:28:17)

Is it also the negative effect of, so our kind of community, I guess if you look at the demographics, most of the people that go to Burning Man are highly intellectual, highly educated, right? So is that a negative by-product of that as well? Everybody is being snarky because they think you know, it's a pissing competition between intellects.

[Deirdre] (1:28:17 - 1:29:23)

It's a privilege, isn't it? Cause I mean, there's so many people out there, even though you've got decommodification, like so many people telling you how much money they spent on something or, you know, I just think of the conversations I've had or just the ability to bring an art car or the ability to even go to a burn or learn to go like for us to go to America, like how privileged is that? Or just the fact that you're from Australia and you go, I've got two weeks off work and everyone there goes, what?

How did you get that? Like just a regular working American can't even comprehend that. But yeah, like I've had so many conversations with people, there's, but there's, you know, there's entire like 99 point whatever percent of the world can't get there, but I don't know why you would try to keep it that way at all costs.

It's so weird. I think creativity only benefits from diversity of experience and thought. And so do communities.

So I just don't understand. Like if you want to have that, have a house party and like just invite your friends.

[Felipe] (1:29:25 - 1:29:42)

Yeah. I wonder how much it gets confused. Like the, you know, people say that snark is in the, is in the burner DNA.

And I, I, I would like to challenge that. I don't know.

[Stevan] (1:29:43 - 1:29:57)

I think like you mentioned, there is more larrikinism than say Rainbow or Confest or your regular doof that you go to. I mean, the, the, the shenanigans and fuckery sometimes are off the chart and I love it.

[Felipe] (1:29:58 - 1:30:03)

Yeah. And that's okay. Like, I mean, the shenanigans and the fuckery being off the chart.

[Stevan] (1:30:03 - 1:30:12)

But that's, that's the cacophony society. That's the pranking. Pranking. So I love that we carried that over.

[Felipe] (1:30:14 - 1:30:23)

There's definitions to all these, these different things, right? Like the, they are different things in, in, in all of them depend on context.

[Stevan] (1:30:23 - 1:30:26)

It's a slippery slope. I don't know about these things, but on a slippery slope.

[Felipe] (1:30:27 - 1:30:27)

Yeah. I agree.

[Deirdre] (1:30:27 - 1:31:39)

Yeah. And I mean, the whole safety third thing means that we all like that it's a little bit dangerous. So I think, you know, socially and, you know, physically you're climbing up an artwork that maybe you shouldn't.

We do like that, that edge. So yeah, I get what you're saying. Like, we sort of like to push limits, like we're there pushing limits.

That's the whole point of it. Right. So yeah, I feel like I've been really one sided this whole time going rah, rah, snark is bad, but I probably should be a bit more balanced and kind of go, yeah, I am someone who is responsible for a lot of the silliness and, you know, shenanigans.

That's what we're there for. That's what we do. And yeah, maybe it's like, I don't know, but I, I play a lot of tricks and pranks and things, but they're normally, I don't know, I think they're funny.

Maybe they're horrific to other people. I don't know. But, you know, really involve like a puppet or something stupid.

It's not normally going, fuck you, what are you doing here? You don't belong. But in a really awful way that sticks with people, I don't know.

Who knows? I may well have traumatised many people, left them in my wake, but you kind of, you hope not.

[Felipe] (1:31:41 - 1:31:43)

I highly doubt that, but yes.

[Deirdre] (1:31:44 - 1:32:53)

Watch out. I mean, we probably all have, right? We've all been, I don't know, victim perpetrator, but I mean, yeah, if you're not running around just being an asshole, it's sort of, yeah.

I mean, yeah. The tricksy kind of stuff and the pranks, like I watched some people put giant googly eyes on the top of the, one of the signs at Underland last year above the saloon. There was like the, this giant skull.

And I was in the middle of the night, watched these people go up and put these googly eyes on. And then they had the little tiny saloon at the front that was sort of a tiny replica. And then I was like, if you're going to do that, put tiny googly eyes on the little replica.

And they went, oh my God, great idea. So, you know, I was part of that. And it was inadvertently just wandering around.

And that's funny, but it wasn't like, I don't know, what would a snarky version, but like, that to me is funny. And yeah, I don't know if anyone went, oh my God, there's googly eyes on our saloon. But you know, that's not the start.

[Felipe] (1:32:54 - 1:32:57)

Yeah. It's not a snark. That's the thing.

It's different.

[Stevan] (1:32:57 - 1:32:57)

It's a prank.

[Felipe] (1:32:58 - 1:34:28)

Yeah.

It's a prank. And I guess just like snark and banter, pranks, the prank universe, there will be the fine pranks and okay pranks and the shitty ones. And I guess it's all going to circle back to what brings people in, what builds community and what pushes people out and doesn't build community.

And I guess that's a good way to measure most of the interactions. And it's that comment that I made on my presentation, that language shapes the culture, right? And the way to measure if that language is being constructive is by looking at this, are we bringing people in with our comments and actions or are we pushing people out?

And sometimes it's ambiguous. And that's where I guess the edge of our culture lives. We live this edgy, pushing boundaries.

There's quite a few things that can be ambiguous and fun and funny. But as long as it's bringing people in and not excluding people and pushing them out, it's okay. I guess.

Yeah. Summarizing it all.

[Deirdre] (1:34:29 - 1:34:35)

If that's what we want. Yeah. If that's what we want, right? Yeah.

[Stevan] (1:34:36 - 1:34:59)

So gatekeeping was also your other half of your presentation with Snark. So gatekeeping is the definition that you gave us, was that it is controlling access. Intention is often to preserve culture, but the impact is often limiting participation.

So do you remember, or can you remember any good examples or bad examples of gatekeeping?

[Felipe] (1:34:59 - 1:36:59)

Oh, I have so many examples of gatekeeping. Like even, for example, if you worked in the leadership and you just need access to some document that is in the drive and all the different orgs have different drives that probably are all messy. But isn't it easier for somebody to just say, hey, here is the latest version of that document.

And this is why we wrote it, blah, blah, blah, rather than crossing the arms and saying, I have no idea where that is, or why are you trying to do this this way and not the way that we've been doing for the past 20 years, because this is how we've been doing it well. So if you have been doing that for the past 15 years, that's got to be a reason, right? So we also build culture on our cultures that we make mistakes and then we try again.

And so we have these iterations of trying and experimenting processes and procedures for how we do things. And sometimes when we land on a good procedure for something in terms of operations, we kind of stick to it and that becomes solidified in the culture. But it doesn't mean that there isn't space for change.

So people sometimes sit on their procedures like that's the only possible way of doing something. And it's not necessarily like so. There's a lot of gatekeeping I find in the burner culture.

And yeah, I'm not a gatekeeper. Let's just share the information. That's what we are trying to do at Bonza.

That's exactly what we are trying to do at Bonza. It's like absolutely explode the doors and share good practice, share information. So we're doing better.

[Stevan] (1:37:00 - 1:37:19)

So do you think it's like a subculture thing, like a regional thing? We do better because we are at a smaller, more connected network. Whereas if you're a big organization or a big big burn or something, I don't know how they operate, but there are probably more tend to be more gatekeepers there.

[Felipe] (1:37:19 - 1:38:21)

Good question. I don't think so. I don't think so.

I think it's just like SNARK. Gatekeeping is about power, right? It's about maintaining your status and maintaining your status quo.

So the person gatekeeping, and it can be done with good intentions. Like they think they are doing it for the sake of keeping the culture safe. But what they are doing is the opposite, is that they are actually gatekeeping.

I don't think it's a matter of community size or org size. I think it's a power dynamic. Like gatekeeping is a power dynamic.

When somebody gatekeeps something, it's just because they're sitting in a position of power and barring someone from doing the work. Yeah, that's what it is, really.

[Stevan] (1:38:23 - 1:38:33)

Yeah, you talk about how culture survives through transmission, not through protection. So it does feel like a bit of authoritarianism, if that's the case.

[Felipe] (1:38:34 - 1:39:39)

Yeah, and that's what I was trying to bring into that presentation. So those are two things that exist in our community, but they are not community building behaviors. Both of these behaviors are community building, and they are actually quite present in the Burner community.

People gatekeep thinking that they are preserving traditions, but the reality is the opposite. The traditions only survive through transmission, so protecting it. And traditions change as well, because time changes.

It's the whole discussion that we're having about how we're bringing new Burners, because Gen Z'ers literally see the principles with different eyes. So what I interpret as radical self-expression, a Gen Z'er have a different interpretation of the same principle. So it's an interesting discussion.

Gatekeeping, again, just like Snark, is bullshit.

[Stevan] (1:39:40 - 1:40:09)

The other interesting discussion is talking about Burner identity. Some people actually wear that badge of honor, so to speak. Also, there are some Burns that seem clicky as well, and people have the identity of being a super Burner, so more knowledgeable, and this is the person to actually listen to or to ask.

There's also that identity, so people do take really seriously about how they burn.

[Deirdre] (1:40:11 - 1:40:25)

It's so common, and it's aligned with that. How many burns have you been to? And then a judgment based on that.

It's strange, isn't it?

[Stevan] (1:40:25 - 1:40:47)

Do we have a class system? How do you see things? Because one of the reasons, I guess, especially your summation, Filipe, is to un-fuck these burns.

Right? Un-fuck your burn. That's what you want to do.

Un-fuck these class systems, un-fuck these statuses.

[Felipe] (1:40:48 - 1:41:31)

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think that thinking will be beneficial for community, really. What we are trying to do is build community, and those perceptions and self-perceptions are all ego-driven, and when you put ego into the conversation, that's when you start having snarky remarks, gatekeeping, and all those behaviors that are anti-social.

I'm not here for it. I don't stand for that, and that's why we are highlighting this.

[Deirdre] (1:41:31 - 1:42:56)

Yeah, I would have thought the burn is the antithesis of ego. It's sort of like if you are going out into a natural environment, and you're sort of building something that then you're going to burn, or you're going to disassemble, and it's sort of like it never existed, why is the ego so important? I guess in saying that, it's just made me realize maybe is that the thing that people hold on to?

If I can't say, I built this thing, and here it is, maybe it is. I'm a super burner, and this is how I can prove it. I can tell you how many I've been to, and now it's, I don't know, it used to be I've been here, I've been there, and now it's like, well, have you been to Afrikaburn, and you kind of go, oh, what's the, I remember saying to someone, oh, there'll be a burn on the moon next, it'll be Mars, whatever it is, have you been there?

But yeah, maybe that's because there's nothing else to hold on to or to show for it. I don't know, but I would think then you're kind of taking the wrong thing out of it, like why do we go and build a big thing and then burn it if that's not for kind of saying that you are rejecting ego, like you kind of, aren't you?

[Felipe] (1:42:58 - 1:44:08)

Yeah, look, I don't, I don't get it, like, I don't even get it, like, it's beyond me, like, why would anyone claim that status of, like, I am a super burner, like, good for you, like, if they're bragging, like, it's different, like, it's different from having an experienced person that you can go to, to ask for answers or to ask questions, and, you know, that you can appreciate that they have been through more burns than you and they are more experienced than you, and there is, and you can tap into that, but there is humility on the way how they, how they communicate to you. When that person is coming from a, I am bragging perspective, that's when it's like, you're just a con, like, what, what's the point? Like, so what?

I've been through 175 burns, well, that's, and I know better, like, meh.

[Deirdre] (1:44:08 - 1:44:09)

You win, you win.

[Felipe] (1:44:10 - 1:44:15)

Yeah, meh, what do they want, like a badge?

Like, I don't know, like, yeah.

[Stevan] (1:44:15 - 1:44:50)

I think once you go beyond the snark, I think you become, like, a jaded burner, right? I mean, you need to, you know, maybe find your passion again, because there was one, you know, so during the Q&A, during the question time, it was interesting where John said that people don't leave because they lose their passion, people leave because they're too passionate, right? And so in the people most likely to leave are often the people bringing the fresh ideas, the different perspectives, and the new energy.

So yeah, people leave because they care too much?

[Felipe] (1:44:50 - 1:45:58)

Yep, I think people leave because they care too much, and then if the environment is not allowing for the ideas to be discussed in a safe space, for the behaviors to be social, constructive, community-building behaviors, and to be in a community that is lifting each other rather than tearing each other down, that's when people leave. So, like, that's, we've seen, probably we've all seen that, like, people that are deeply connected to the burnerverse, and there are doers, and they put a lot of effort and a lot of energy and are super passionate about it, and then when the communication becomes too difficult and too loaded, like, for their brain to, it just becomes exhausting, and then that's when people give up. And I think part of, you know, untangling that is dealing with snark and dealing with gatekeeping, because those are two things that contribute for that mental load and for making people giving up.

[Deirdre] (1:45:59 - 1:47:39)

And there's no one sort of managing the, you know, welcoming and apart from, I guess, if you have, if you have a strong gate and greeters team, right? So whose job is it to counteract this? And Common Arts Victoria has created a Ministry of Empowerment and Welcoming, MEW, so, you know, that sort of, that was our answer to a discussion about diversity and inclusion that sort of started at Underland last year.

There was a pretty robust discussion, I've got to say, I was pretty vocal in it about a lot of the ways that I have felt gatekeeping and snark has sort of been pushing me out and just the constant fighting, coming up against all of that, and just, yeah, you care so much, like, it would be so easy if you could just walk away, it would be great, but you care too much too, and then it's that thing of, ah, I've, you know, burnt out, or, I just, I won't go, and then you sort of go back, like I said last year, I will never go back, and then this year, boom, I'm doing all this stuff, you know, but yeah, it's like there's no HR, there's no, you know, or a good version of that, you know, like someone who's welcoming and teaching people, you know, how to do things and actually being kind, and then you can go off and do your pranks and be silly, you know, it's a really complex environment and system and culture to navigate, yeah.

[Stevan] (1:47:39 - 1:47:42)

Yeah, it's definitely a chaotic environment.

[Deirdre] (1:47:42 - 1:47:43)

Yes.

[Stevan] (1:47:43 - 1:47:49)

But, you know, but we're here to build a community, right, not a swamp, right, not a toxic swamp, right, yeah.

[Felipe] (1:47:50 - 1:47:50)

That's it.

[Stevan] (1:47:50 - 1:47:56)

All right, let's take another quick break, and we'll come back and talk about the psychosocial safety risk.

[Deirdre] (1:47:57 - 1:47:57)

All right.

[Stevan] (1:47:57 - 1:48:07)

So, the psycho, social safety, in leadership and volunteer orgs, that was a great talk, Deirdre. Do you remember how long you spoke for?

[Deirdre] (1:48:07 - 1:48:07)

No.

[Stevan] (1:48:08 - 1:48:09)

About 18 minutes.

[Deirdre] (1:48:09 - 1:48:09)

Oof.

[Stevan] (1:48:11 - 1:48:27)

Yeah, there was a lot of content in there.

So, the one, one of the slides I remember was talking about how the Australian workplace health and safety law now treats psychosocial safety as just as important as physical safety.

[Deirdre] (1:48:28 - 1:52:20)

Yep, yep. So, exactly, and I think that's potentially something that a lot of people don't know about. So, that's really recent in the last couple of years that, yeah, just like companies, organisations are responsible for not injuring you physically, they're also legally responsible for not injuring people psychologically, and that, yeah, there are actually laws around psychosocial safety and ensuring that work environments are safe for your mental health, and that's a sort of a structural perspective building on, I guess, all of the discussion about what happens on the ground. And yeah, so, it's talking about workplaces, organisations, and yeah, volunteer organisations.

So, I think it applies to us. We all are part of, you know, organisations, boards, committees, whatever they are, and we're putting on events, and we have communities, and we have, even though we don't think of ourselves as hierarchical, we certain people hold positions of responsibility, and some people hold leadership positions. It's just the nature of it.

We kind of take turns because someone has to be in charge of herding the cats. And yeah, so, I guess I called it like the emotional version of leaving no trace. I remember saying that in the presentation because, you know, we need to protect the people who are making these events possible, and we have, yeah, a lot of potentially destructive behaviours or cultural norms that lead to burnout and all that kind of thing, which I think also align with what we've been talking about so far.

So, yeah, like what things or what environment makes people want to contribute and what makes people stay and keep coming back is a really – they're really important questions to me because we, yeah, we want to build communities that people actually want to return to. You know, if someone comes to an event and they experience all this negative stuff, might include snark, then why would they come back? So, and then, yeah, I guess we are trying to create a culture of contribution and creativity and freedom in a sense, and yeah, that's largely shaped by what leaders are doing.

So, the leaders are modelling certain behaviours, and yeah, that's what sort of makes it possible. But if, yeah, I also talked about the, you know, the downwards negative spiral that we're all familiar with and how, you know, positive psychology suggests that, you know, you can create an upwards positive spiral, and it just takes a bit of momentum, as does the downward negative spiral, but you've got gravity on your side. So, it is a bit more work, obviously, up front, but that sort of emotional contagion goes both ways.

So, I think everything we've talked about so far in creating – it's creating a safe environment psychologically, which, yeah, allows for that. You know, you think about psychosocial safety is, yeah, if that's the environment that you're in and the social kind of norms around you that then allows you to feel psychologically safe as an individual, all of this is part of it.

[Stevan] (1:52:20 - 1:52:31)

So, psychosocial safety is about how we design the environment, and I loved how you said that it is a structure that protects that vibe. So, the vibe that we're talking about is what builds the culture.

[Deirdre] (1:52:32 - 1:52:33)

Yeah, exactly.

[Stevan] (1:52:34 - 1:52:36)

It's not about the what, it's about the how.

[Deirdre] (1:52:36 - 1:54:42)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly, and yeah, I sort of presented a list of things, you know, creating clarity because ambiguity creates stress. So, like Felipe was saying, if I don't know what's going on, I've got all this extra cognitive load trying to figure it out. Well, let's be clear then what is going on.

It's focusing on connection, so people feeling that they're welcome, that they are valued, and they're being included and supported, encouraging people to speak up because there's a risk that if, yeah, in silence that could mean that, you know, something is going wrong, and managing our own workload so that we avoid burnout, which is something, you know, none of us are particularly good at that, but ideally, we would manage our own workload, and we would take breaks, and we would encourage other people to do the same, and yeah, when people give us feedback, we as leaders would hope to respond with care, so we actually show that we care. We listen to them, take what they're saying seriously.

We might not agree with everything that everyone says, but if we can take seriously their perspective and follow through, then we're creating that safety, and yeah, like I said, model healthy behaviour, so it's the, yeah, not just the, you know, do as I say, not as I do, but actually people, especially if people are new, they're going to be following in our footsteps, and, you know, if you're going into a leadership position, you're normally getting handover from someone, and you're often watching them at the right at the end of their tether, and they're in this burnout, and you're sort of trying to take over from them, and it's not super healthy, and then, yeah, is that safe if people are just completely burning out and disappearing for a few years?

Yeah.

[Stevan] (1:54:42 - 1:55:03)

Yeah, it's not also asking what makes people stay, but also what makes people leave, because a lot of, most of the time, people leave the jobs because of horrible bosses, and we've all seen the movies, so they love their work, they love their environment, but yeah, it just comes back to whether it's incompetence leadership or just, you know, assholes.

[Deirdre] (1:55:04 - 1:55:22)

Yeah, and is the balance there, right? So, people will stay in a job if they love it, but then it, yeah, the tips, the balance tips, so is the good outweighing the bad, and if it's not, why would you not going to come back?

[Stevan] (1:55:23 - 1:55:31)

Okay, so usually, we like to end the show with some shout-outs and gratitude, so who would you like to give thanks to, Felipe?

[Felipe] (1:55:32 - 1:56:56)

Wow, look, absolute to every single person that has been working in the leadership in any capacity, like a massive, yeah, I see a wall, and it's a huge amount of work, but also, like, yeah, to SBA, to every person that contributed for the pivot burn to happen, that burn was an adventure, that's for sure, and to the community overall, like, to all of us, it's, I think it's a thank you to all of us for keep doing it, because if there is one resilient and stubborn bunch, it's us, and, like, even without this challenge, we keep going back, and we keep on doing it, so it's pretty cool to see, and, yeah, it fills my heart, so I'm grateful to every single burner that exists out there, not the cunty ones, the good ones, hey, the cunty ones can be cunties if they take accountability for making mistakes, we all make mistakes, we are humans, but, yes, that's what it is about, so it's, yeah, thanks to all of us.

[Stevan] (1:56:57 - 1:57:07)

Well, shout-out to also the Devon Lounge, and for the spoon-making workshop that you guys provide, I love it, in Australia, we use the word cunt as a term of affection as well.

[Felipe] (1:57:08 - 1:57:19)

Oh, yeah, I use it a lot. I use that word a lot, I probably should use a lot less, but, yeah, thanks, I'll pass on the thanks to our crew.

[Deirdre] (1:57:20 - 1:58:01)

And for me, I guess I would thank the organisers of Bonza, because it's pretty cool to be able to get in a room with all those people for a weekend, and that looks like a lot of work, and then, yeah, I guess everyone who took their time out to come, and then it's like, oh, you're spending all your year working on this stuff, and then we're going to come to Sydney and talk about the working on the stuff.

It gets sort of more and more layered. I didn't want to say that, because they've ruined the word, unfortunately.

[Felipe] (1:58:02 - 1:58:04)

Claim it back, claim it back.

[Deirdre] (1:58:04 - 1:58:23)

Yeah, that's right, exactly, not capital M, just meta, yeah, it gets more and more meta, and, yeah, then I guess to you, because it's pretty incredible that you do the podcast on top of all that. Now we're talking about the talking about the doing the stuff. So it's meta, meta, I love it.

[Stevan] (1:58:23 - 1:58:23)

It's very meta, isn't it?

[Deirdre] (1:58:23 - 1:58:44)

Yeah, it's meta, meta, I love it. Yeah, I mean, you work so hard, you and PY, you work really hard on this, and it's so appreciated by the whole community.

I don't know if you hear that very often, but it's awesome. Keep the conversation going all year round, that's what I reckon. The more we can make this our life and not just an event, I think that's really important.

[Stevan] (1:58:45 - 1:58:51)

Yes, thank you, and I loved how you did your presentation, and then straight away, exit stage right, you went to the airport.

[Deirdre] (1:58:51 - 1:58:52)

Yeah, boom.

[Stevan] (1:58:52 - 1:58:52)

Yep.

[Deirdre] (1:58:55 - 1:59:12)

Not taking any questions.

I've had a few emails, though, it's interesting. I've had a few emails, and I've got a presentation lined up to the leadership of Blazing Swan, who wants this topic. So it's, yeah, people are, it's resonating with people.

[Stevan] (1:59:13 - 1:59:17)

And how about the feedback for you, Felipe, afterwards now? So have you?

[Felipe] (1:59:17 - 2:00:19)

Yeah, look, I got so much feedback from it, which was actually, like, positively overwhelming, but like, there was a lot of cool feedback. I heard some really amazing, amazing things. And I really hope that it is the circuit breaker that the community needed to be brave enough to talk about it, because it just lived there, right?

Like, nobody addressed it, and it was there. And I'm like, what? And I didn't realize that until somebody told me that.

Like, that was one of the feedbacks that I heard that was like, wow. It was like, wow. Okay.

Like, that's how they felt, that that presentation was like the circuit breaker, acknowledging this and giving permission for people to talk about it. And I, like, it's pretty, like, yeah, just talking about it makes me emotional again. I fucking hope it is.

Like, that's what I think.

[Stevan] (2:00:21 - 2:00:29)

Yeah, both of those were very self-reflective talks and conversations. How would you rate this conversation? I loved this conversation.

[Felipe] (2:00:30 - 2:00:36)

This was great. Thank you. Like, I appreciate you guys.

Same, like, I helped you. What Deirdre said.

[Deirdre] (2:00:38 - 2:00:42)

Whatever the scale is, yeah, 10 dusty hugs out of 10.

[Stevan] (2:00:42 - 2:00:47)

Well, this episode's going straight to the pool room, so thanks very much.

[Deirdre] (2:00:47 - 2:00:47)

Awesome.

[Felipe] (2:00:48 - 2:00:51)

Thank you, guys. Thank you.

[Deirdre] (2:00:52 - 2:00:52)

Great chat.

Transcripts transcribed by TurboScribe.ai